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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So, could we just change words?

85 replies

NotMySquirrel · 22/02/2019 11:20

I've been thinking about this since I saw the OP a while back accusing everyone who doesn't identify as Barbie of actually being a man. It got me thinking, if 'woman' now means 'Barbie circa 1970' and anything non-Barbie is male, no matter how many Barbie boxes are ticked, could we just concede the fight over terminology and make a new term? After all, it's not about stereotyping or pink, fundamentally the question that should separate us, as far as I can see, is 'Do you have a vagina?' I'm aware some MtF trans people have their penises removed and vaginas created out of them, but imo anyone willing to do that can share women's facilities as they're clearly very committed (and as far as I can tell there aren't many of them).

Could we do all equality statistics, all separated spaces, sporting events etc on the basis of vagina/no vagina? Let people with penises call themselves women if they like but they're going to need to use the no-vagina changing rooms? And you can switch between male/female (read non-Barbie/Barbie) twenty times a day if you like but for equality statistics and sporting events you're a no-vagina or a vagina-haver (we'd have to come up with catchier names though).

Have I totally missed the point?

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/02/2019 11:26

If you make a new term they will come for that.

elQuintoConyo · 22/02/2019 11:28

I'm lost. What?

ClaraMatilda · 22/02/2019 11:31

I've seen this suggested before on Twitter. It's logical.

The TRA response, predictably, was that the condition of having a vagina makes you Privileged over those 'women' who do not have vaginas. Therefore it's discriminatory to have a space only for people with vaginas. Feelings might be hurt. Hmm (Plus the usual rubbish 'but what about a woman born with no vagina?!' as if exceptional cases disproved the argument).

Kettleon80 · 22/02/2019 11:32

No. Why should we change words? We are not the ones who want it changed.

There is no other word. Man and woman describes reality fine.

Myusernameismud · 22/02/2019 11:33

Do away with all gender terms, and just refer to people as XX and XY. Problem solved.

FamilyOfAliens · 22/02/2019 11:34

I'm aware some MtF trans people have their penises removed and vaginas created out of them

No they don’t. They can call it many things, but a vagina it is not.

jellyfrizz · 22/02/2019 11:36

Have I totally missed the point?

I don't think so. To me it's about making a clear distinction between sex and gender and you can't do that if they are mushed together under one term.

But as CaptainKirk said whatever term you come up with people will identify as that. See female.

jellyfrizz · 22/02/2019 11:37

Do away with all gender terms, and just refer to people as XX and XY. Problem solved.

But I AM XY, my body just doesn't match.

EweSurname · 22/02/2019 11:39

A lot of transwomen already call themselves “adult human females” so whatever term you come up with will be appropriated by some transwomen. Better to fight the principle, I think, as ithe end goal for some is to eliminate any way of differentiate women on the basis of their sex, whatever words are used.

ClaraMatilda · 22/02/2019 11:41

But as CaptainKirk said whatever term you come up with people will identify as that.

Absolutely. I'm sure if we all gave up and accepted the (horrible, insulting) term 'cis' it wouldn't be long before we heard 'I've finished transitioning, so I'm 'cis' now too...'

Beamur · 22/02/2019 11:42

It's more rebellious to refuse to alter your language these days.
Whatever women call themselves will be co-opted.

DoctoressPlague · 22/02/2019 11:44

I'm aware some MtF trans people have their penises removed and vaginas created out of them, but imo anyone willing to do that can share women's facilities as they're clearly very committed
No fucking way am I going to start encouraging self-mutilation. This way of thinking is medieval in my opinion.

Original poster
NotMySquirrel · 22/02/2019 11:44

Do away with all gender terms, and just refer to people as XX and XY. Problem solved.

Wouldn't you need to test everyone to establish what they were first though? As PP pointed out, it doesn't always follow that people with vaginas are XX.

The TRA response, predictably, was that the condition of having a vagina makes you Privileged over those 'women' who do not have vaginas. Therefore it's discriminatory to have a space only for people with vaginas. Feelings might be hurt. hmm (Plus the usual rubbish 'but what about a woman born with no vagina?!' as if exceptional cases disproved the argument).

Darn it. It's a silly argument, but you're right, that won't stop them making it. sigh Back to the drawing board.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 22/02/2019 11:44

No. Because they want to abolish sex as any meaningful/extant differentiation anywhere. That's why they change the language.

You've chicken and egged it.

LetsSplashMummy · 22/02/2019 11:46

They have already started using the term biological woman, and adult human female. There is no way a new term won't be appropriated and it would leave all women's rights and legal things to them.

I was new to this around the time of "womxn," and I thought that was a nice compromise- leaving woman for us women, having a new word for times both groups were combined. I totally misread the situation and underestimated how reasonable the other side might be.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 22/02/2019 11:48

A lot of transwomen already call themselves “adult human females” so whatever term you come up with will be appropriated by some transwomen.

Precisely. Which is why I've reached the point now of just a flat reply of no. Women are women, end of.

There is no nice way out of this OP, it is not about terms or inclusion, it's about colonisation, control and taking things from women. For women, it has to be all about boundaries and the good old classic of ignoring bad/insane behaviour until the screaming and hurling of toys stops.

RedRosa90 · 22/02/2019 11:48

I have thought a bit about having spaces for "FAB" people (female at birth). This would actually include a lot of trans men, non-binary FABs too (so, yeah, not trans exclusionary..), and the rest of us who don't recognise gender as a thing, but do recognise sex and sexism and something that needs combatting.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 22/02/2019 11:50

As my line manager used to say to me when working with a 'vexatious client' (toxic person usually with a personality disorder) "Start from the point that there is no way to make this person happy. Whatever you do will never be enough, or right. And then do what is objectively right rather than invest in fruitlessly running around trying to please them."

jellyfrizz · 22/02/2019 11:53

I have thought a bit about having spaces for "FAB" people (female at birth).

But then you get 'I have always been female, my body just doesn't match.'

Myusernameismud · 22/02/2019 11:55

I like the idea of FAB spaces. Because, whichever way you look at it, it is female at birth people who are most at risk. A transwoman in a female prison endangers the women there. But a transman in a men's prison is also in danger. There's no danger to the men in prison by having a transman amongst them, but the transman would be at risk for sure.
The same goes for changing rooms etc, and also within sport eg a transman would never beat a MAB (actually quite liking that term). Transman will also never be able to compete with biological males for jobs etc.

It is always, always the FAB who suffer.

DonkeySkin · 22/02/2019 11:56

the end goal for some is to eliminate any way of differentiate women on the basis of their sex, whatever words are used

Yes, this. Whichever word we use for ourselves is the word they will want.

TRAs commonly claim that 'cis women aren't the standard for womanhood'. But we clearly are. Without us, the word 'woman' has no meaning, and no value at all for transgender males.

If all the adult human females stopped calling ourselves 'women' and referred to ourselves as 'XXers' instead, no man would be interested in being a 'trans woman'. They'd all be identifying as 'trans XXers'. And it would be a hate crime to call them an XY.

Original poster
NotMySquirrel · 22/02/2019 11:56

@Knicknackpaddyflak

Wise line manager. I might steal that wisdom for other areas of my life.

OP posts:
nauticant · 22/02/2019 11:57

Amen to that Knicknackpaddyflak.

FamilyOfAliens · 22/02/2019 11:59

But then you get 'I have always been female, my body just doesn't match.'

I was really rooting for FAB up to that point. Of course transwomen will say they have always been female.

And we know and they know that they aren’t women, but give it a couple of years and it will be illegal to even think that, never mind say it.

RedRosa90 · 22/02/2019 12:00

Sigh, jellyfrizz, I know.. :( it's sad that even trans inclusive (I.e. gender identity inclusive) spaces for FABs would still be hounded. I wish more trans men who have female bodies would join with this fight. And that more non-binary FABs would be de-cultified and recongise that they are being massively short changed if we can't discuss sex and sexism as real. FABs really need our own space, it doesn't bloody matter what our beliefs about gender are, just like it doesn't matter what our religious beliefs are or political beliefs. We need FAB spaces still to combat the environment of sexism and female socialisation we are born into and raised with.

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