So, could we just change words?

[NotMySquirrel]

I've been thinking about this since I saw the OP a while back accusing everyone who doesn't identify as Barbie of actually being a man. It got me thinking, if 'woman' now means 'Barbie circa 1970' and anything non-Barbie is male, no matter how many Barbie boxes are ticked, could we just concede the fight over terminology and make a new term? After all, it's not about stereotyping or pink, fundamentally the question that should separate us, as far as I can see, is 'Do you have a vagina?' I'm aware some MtF trans people have their penises removed and vaginas created out of them, but imo anyone willing to do that can share women's facilities as they're clearly very committed (and as far as I can tell there aren't many of them).

Could we do all equality statistics, all separated spaces, sporting events etc on the basis of vagina/no vagina? Let people with penises call themselves women if they like but they're going to need to use the no-vagina changing rooms? And you can switch between male/female (read non-Barbie/Barbie) twenty times a day if you like but for equality statistics and sporting events you're a no-vagina or a vagina-haver (we'd have to come up with catchier names though).

Have I totally missed the point?

Drives me mad.

Lots of AGPs are getting inverted penises nowadays. So, no, that 'marker' does not fly with me.

As stated above, they have already started using 'female'. And I have seen 'cs' used too (rare though due to the majority view of 'us vs them' mentality. Cs people are the worst apparently, oppressors innit..and, like, so boring)

Lastly, change our words? Fuck, no.

Wise line manager.

She was. And she was right. It was largely the experience of having people running around in confusion apologising and reasoning and trying to please and failing so they could be shouted at some more that was meeting the client's needs. #gamespeopleplay

It bothers me these days that when I say my pronouns are she/her (I am asked at nearly every bloody thing these days) or when I say I am a woman people hear that I "identify" as a woman rather than that have been identified as one because of my body (and that I do not believe in gender) and so i am literally telling them I have as vagina. It means nothing other than that for me. Not because I am "cis" or "identify" with womanhood but because I belong to the female sex class. The language has already been massively co-opted and I fear that there is no return now. I hope I'm wrong.

Start from the point that there is no way to make this person happy. Whatever you do will never be enough, or right. And then do what is objectively right rather than invest in fruitlessly running around trying to please them."
Oh very good!

A tweet I saw earlier...

That tweet. What to rage more about. The tweet itself or the 'grateful' response.

I despair.

RedRosa
My answer to that is to take a leaf from Sheila Jeffreys, Julia Long and increasing numbers of women who refuse to use any of that 'gender' language.

No 'female bodied transmen' or FABs or any of the other crap we've been coerced into using while trying not to upset people.

Just use the words every ordinary person understands - man/ woman, male/ female.

But my penis IS a vagina.

It bothers me these days that when I say my pronouns are she/her (I am asked at nearly every bloody thing these days) or when I say I am a woman people hear that I "identify" as a woman rather than that have been identified as one because of my body (and that I do not believe in gender) and so i am literally telling them I have as vagina. It means nothing other than that for me. Not because I am "cis" or "identify" with womanhood but because I belong to the female sex class. The language has already been massively co-opted and I fear that there is no return now. I hope I'm wrong.

This drives me mad too. I may start saying I have no gender identity so wish to be referred to by my name rather than pronouns.

Kettleon

Wanna rage a bit more?

That tweet was in response to this -

mobile.twitter.com/lisaquestions/status/109799269946913177

mobile.twitter.com/lisaquestions/status/1097992699469131777

Trying again

Man/woman, male/female.

Transwoman / transman.

These simple factual descriptions exist already. The problem isn't one of finding the right language.

We need a watertight dam. Females exist. We are a very specific group. We are enough, as ourselves, to credit recognition, rights and protections.

The era of female as a purported identity has got to come to an end. There's no other way.

Thank you, Barracker. At this point, women need hard boundaries. Anything else will be taken by men as an invitation to start negotiating away our 'no'.

Currently the media and politicians are framing this battle as if 'women' is a club that a bunch of haughty bitches want to stop some poor, suffering men from joining. Unfortunately, the framing that most GC feminists have taken in response to this ('we need to find a way to balance women's and transwomen's rights') actually reinforces this narrative, which is why it is ultimately a losing proposition.

There is no balance to be found between the right of women and girls to have our sex socially and legally recognised, and the desire of some men to be affirmed as 'women'. The problem is not a clash of rights, but that a material reality ('sex') is being replaced in law and policy with a metaphysical claim ('gender identity').

This is not a clash between the 'rights' of two marginalised groups, it is a fight for the female half of humanity to retain the right to have our biological reality socially, legally and even medically (!) recognised, because some men find that reality inconvenient and offensive to them.

Any term you claim will be demanded.

Even those silly enough to accept 'cis' have seen a slow creep to take that one.

They've land grabbed 'woman' and we've shifted to 'Adult Human Female', and they've demanded it. The same thing has happened in a rather high profile manner with 'biological woman'.

The answer is not to invent a new term ripe to be colonized. The answer is to call women, women, and not cede any ground in the first place.

If anyone asks me for pronouns I will advise them of my non participation in indentity politics.

Jellyfrizz, if you did that they would assume you to be trans rather than as rejecting the whole gender thing, because lots of non-binary people already request this. But it would definitely solve the whole assumption you are identifying as what your pronoun is. Go for it! Let us know how it goes if you like. I think I might just start saying calmly that whilst I respect others pronoun choice I don't believe in gender so I will not say my pronoun because it's tantamount to the first question they ask me being what's between my legs and I find that a bit invasive. Apart from that I probably wouldn't say that because all it would mean is that people wouldn't speak to me and I'd be even more socially excluded than I am. Maybe I'll just say "it's complicated but I don't want to share my pronoun".

And yes, I agree with everyone about sticking with men and male, female and women. Transsexual men might not like it but I am not prioritising them over others or myself.

Also, Jellyfrizz I feel we might be in a similar age/type of social circle because I take it this happens to you loads too. I have stopped going to things where I think it might happen which has reduced my social life considerably. I can't avoid it for things that are very personally meaningful such as my work though. So I have to find ways. I always find it a big relief when something is being run by older women who don't tend to roll with all this so easily.

RedRosa90

People have become so appallingly rude and childish. Identity politics seems to bring out the absolute worst in people.

Jellyfrizz, if you did that they would assume you to be trans rather than as rejecting the whole gender thing, because lots of non-binary people already request this.

Ha, true. Let them assume. That's the whole problem with gender isn't it? It's all a load of assumptions.

It doesn't matter what language is used, it'll be co-opted. That's the problem. Male/female are biological terms, but that's not relevant any more.

What about "I don't have a gender identity, but you can use whichever pronouns you consider sensible to describe my sex" as a response?

Out if interest, what kind of events are you all being asked for your pronouns at? I haven't come across it at all!

That Twitter thread ImFine

I don't have enough to represent my feelings.

Blocked from that twitter account

I will never get re educated

Oh dear