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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My MP got back to me after a year!!!

42 replies

OhTheDramz · 21/02/2019 10:48

I wrote to him in December 2017 and he’s just got back to me. Can I c&p his response? He’s a LD MP and I have always really liked him.

His reply

Before I begin, I must sincerely apologise for the extreme delay in my response. It appears that your email was misfiled and has only recently come to light, for this error, I am very sorry.

Thank you for writing to me regarding the possible reform of the Gender Recognition Act. Liberal Democrats welcome discussion designed to address genuine concerns and further greater understanding.

The Gender Recognition Act currently allows transgender people to have their lived-in gender legally recognised. Issues such as access to gender-restricted spaces and services are covered under the Equality Act, which incorporates much case law from the last 30 or so years.

The debate now is whether self-declaration of gender - separate from any operation - is acceptable, and how that can be implemented.

I and my party, the Liberal Democrats, are in favour of respectful and evidence-based discussion. While I do agree that women often struggle to have their voices heard, it is similarly true for transgender people who often find themselves the subject of ill-informed and misleading comment.

Fortunately considerable evidence is available - from other countries where a self-declaration process has been introduced. In countries such as Ireland, Norway, Malta and Denmark, there have been no reported adverse effects of a self-declaration process.

On implementation of wider rights to transgender people, it is the case that the Equality Act and various pieces of legislation covering public order offences already govern access to gender-segregated spaces and services.

Any request to exclude transgender women from women-only spaces must be justified under that law.

The evidence suggests that transgender women experience significant sexual abuse and domestic violence, and already access appropriate women’s services to assist them. Such services must assess the risk any possible service user poses. Any woman, whether transgender or not, can be excluded from such services if they are deemed to place themselves, other service users or providers at risk. Given the lack of incidents involving transgender women in women-only spaces, there would have to be a strong case based on evidence to change the existing law.

The publication of the Women and Equalities Select Committee’s report did not change the Equality Act nor any of the exemptions legally allowed, and it is important to be mindful of the discrimination already faced by transgender people.

Liberal Democrats understand that the government intends its consultation on reform of the Gender Recognition Act to involve discussions with interested and affected groups, which will include women’s groups. Women have not been and will not be silenced during this process, Liberal Democrats will ensure this continues to be the case.

The number of transgender women is relatively small compared to the number of women overall, so it is unlikely there will be any substantial effect on data recording. It is the Equality Act that covers the concept of perception, so that if discrimination occurs on the basis that someone is perceived as a woman, then this counts as sex-based discrimination.

The current gender recognition process has been identified as cumbersome and costly, as well as demeaning to transgender people – they never meet the panel and there is no right of appeal. Other identity documents, such as passports and driving licences, have been obtained by self-declaration of gender for decades. The recommended changes cut an anonymous, bureaucratic process and give some dignity back to transgender people.

Whether by righting past wrongs, protecting citizens, or increasing freedom, Liberal Democrats believe that legislation defending rights and liberties protects individuals and drives opportunity for many under-represented groups. Liberal Democrats will continue to fight for the rights of these groups, including the rights of all women. If you have any further concerns, please do not hesitate to reach out again.

I do recognise that this is a relatively new debate, and I confess that I have already learnt a lot in the last two years of engaging in it - so please do feel free to respond to my reply, with any questions or concerns.

Even if we don't agree totally, I am genuinely keen to understand your views and position. Too much of the debate I've seen has regrettably not been conducted with sufficient respect for different views.

Thank you for contacting me - and once again, please accept my apologies for the delay in replying

OP posts:
OhTheDramz · 21/02/2019 10:49

Honestly I think it’s pretty good. Am tempted to meet him and talk a bit more.

OP posts:
Trousering · 21/02/2019 10:56

Perhaps he can share the considerable evidence of no incidents he refers to in Malta et al.

I keep hearing there is proof of no incidents and yet there is no proof this proof exists?

Do please ask him where the proof of no evidence is. Unless of course he does not feel any need to prove it.

Manderleyagain · 21/02/2019 10:59

The end paragraph is good - open for discussion.
It would be worth finding out how it works in the other countries. In Ireland they kept sex segregation (ie not gender) in some circumstances. Rosa freedman talked about it in a couple of recent talks pinned at the top of her twitter.

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 21/02/2019 11:00

Well it's good they are at least acknowledging there's two sides to this!

RiverTam · 21/02/2019 11:01

I stopped reading after he implied everything was tickety boo in other countries.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 21/02/2019 11:06

Sigh.

While respecting his choice of belief that TWAW, it is perfectly reasonable for women to believe that transwomen are transwomen, and therefore male, and this is widely held belief. Given that these women will experience TW as male in their spaces, why does he feel that women should accommodate males in situations of vulnerability and in specific women only resources? Why shouldn't additional services instead be provided?

What does he propose to do with women who are not, for cultural, faith based, trauma based, disability based and privacy/dignity based reasons not able to share facilities with people whose biological reality remains male? Is he happy to exclude those women from accessing women only resources and in turn from health care and access to public spaces? These people are from his under represented groups too, who in many cases already struggle to access facilities and resources.

Its lovely he is interested in the dignity of TW/TM. How does he feel about the dignity of women and girls in showers, changing rooms and toilets, hospital wards, smear tests? How does he feel about the dignity of all women when the word 'woman' is something anyone can opt into on legal documentation? And while we're at it, why does he feel anyone should continue to bother with legal documentation when it's now recording chosen fiction over actual fact? Does that not render it pointless anyway?

No, not that hopeful at all really. Massively stuck in awwww bless and not thinking about facts.

hackmum · 21/02/2019 11:09

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I note that he fails to mention Canada, in which there have been several instances of the self-ID law being abused.

Homestar · 21/02/2019 11:13

Ireland, Norway, Malta and Denmark,

I notice he hasn't mentioned Canada.

I do hate that argument. As soon as an unignorable, widely-reported problematic consequence of the legislation crops up in Denmark they'll just take Denmark off their "absence of evidence" list and keep citing Ireland and Norway and Malta...

And more to the point, lots of problems have cropped up in the UK already from organisations changing their policies to anticipate the legislation, why does it matter that there's an absence of evidence of problems in Malta?

AncientLights · 21/02/2019 11:14

He does raise the issue of surgery at the beginning and seems, wrongly, to think this is move away from that being a requirement. When, as we all know, that went away years ago. Or am I reading it wrong? Not does he get that if the law change goes through, any man can say the magic words and legally gain access to women's spaces.

Naive.

Homestar · 21/02/2019 11:21

hackmum I just noticed your comment, we must have crossed over!

butteryellow · 21/02/2019 11:40

I mean - he's got a fair few things wrong there - there are plenty of instances of males abusing women in female spaces, some of these males were transgender, and the data recording absolutely is in significant numbers in the prison population.

I suspect the source of his information was a touch biased. It would certainly be worth correcting some of his misconceptions.

Blueblueyellow · 21/02/2019 11:46

There are nearly 5 million people in Ireland, in the UK there is over 66 million. There is no point at all in trying to compare the 2 places. Also in Ireland, biological women are separated from biological men in prisons and hospitals.

cauliflowersqueeze · 21/02/2019 11:47

I’ve been waiting for a reply from Tony Blair to a letter that my form group wrote to him in 1999. Someone from his office wrote and said he was very busy at the moment but would respond to us soon. That was 20 years ago and that form group are now aged around 33/34.

thatdamnwoman · 21/02/2019 11:50

Do go and visit him and print up a smallish file of evidence: printing stuff up meant that my MP could sit and skim read through a couple of articles while I was there and she seemed genuinely surprised by what she was reading and did change her tune somewhat.

What I've realised is that this issue is so far down MP's must-do lists that they know very little about it: they'll take their line from the party line unless as a constituent you go and educate them yourselves. I suspect that some of them just check to see what their LGBT group says and say likewise with absolutely no idea that, for example, the LGBT Lib Dem group was taken over by TRAs a couple of years ago.

They have Brexit, they have their parties falling to bits, they are dealing with the results of austerity, job losses, the NHS falling apart — against these things the trans agenda barely registers. It's up to us to educate them and keep the pressure on.

userschmoozer · 21/02/2019 11:52

Ask him how crimes committed by and against women will be recorded, in countries where trans women are women.

Iggypoppie · 21/02/2019 11:57

Ireland have segregation in prisons etc. Women's place uk overview womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

frazzled1 · 21/02/2019 12:10

.... govern access to gender-segregated spaces and services

Sigh.

Sex segregated spaces surely?...

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 21/02/2019 12:14

Crap response. What he is saying, basically, is that women's rights and trans rights are in conflict so the latter will win out.

It's under the bus for you, pesky women. And so shut up, while you're at it, won't you? You're disturbing our manly spaces with your protests.

MillytantForceit · 21/02/2019 12:16

The suggestion that there's only a few so it will make no difference to data recording is transparently wrong.

Needmoresleep · 21/02/2019 12:26

Yes. The Governments own estimates are 5000 for the original GRA - where they got it almost bang on. And up to 500,000 coming under the proposed revisions. The Stonewall definition of trans is incredibly broad, and rather shocking.

My MP did not reply. I suspect she is GC as she "liked" a Girl Guides tweet. However, like many, she is in very real danger of deselection so presumably wont want to raise her head above the parapet on another issue. I think MPs will start showing their colours when Brexit is done and dusted.

LangCleg · 21/02/2019 12:30

I think it's a shit reply.

0ttoline · 21/02/2019 12:51

Do make an appointment to go and discuss this with him please, OP. You may find he is more responsive in person, and more able to speak freely. Could be he doesn't believe what he's written to you himself.

Juells · 21/02/2019 13:31

I stopped reading when I got to already govern access to gender-segregated spaces and services.

He's been edumacated 😂

Juells · 21/02/2019 13:32

PS isn't it quite comical that the on their very first day of existence the Independents were already polling higher than the LibDems?

MillytantForceit · 21/02/2019 13:51

It does not matter if there are 5000, 500,000 or 5. A false stat is a false stat.

This would be particularly true in the case of violent crime where men are disproportionately and overwhelmingly the perpetrators.