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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My MP got back to me after a year!!!

42 replies

OhTheDramz · 21/02/2019 10:48

I wrote to him in December 2017 and he’s just got back to me. Can I c&p his response? He’s a LD MP and I have always really liked him.

His reply

Before I begin, I must sincerely apologise for the extreme delay in my response. It appears that your email was misfiled and has only recently come to light, for this error, I am very sorry.

Thank you for writing to me regarding the possible reform of the Gender Recognition Act. Liberal Democrats welcome discussion designed to address genuine concerns and further greater understanding.

The Gender Recognition Act currently allows transgender people to have their lived-in gender legally recognised. Issues such as access to gender-restricted spaces and services are covered under the Equality Act, which incorporates much case law from the last 30 or so years.

The debate now is whether self-declaration of gender - separate from any operation - is acceptable, and how that can be implemented.

I and my party, the Liberal Democrats, are in favour of respectful and evidence-based discussion. While I do agree that women often struggle to have their voices heard, it is similarly true for transgender people who often find themselves the subject of ill-informed and misleading comment.

Fortunately considerable evidence is available - from other countries where a self-declaration process has been introduced. In countries such as Ireland, Norway, Malta and Denmark, there have been no reported adverse effects of a self-declaration process.

On implementation of wider rights to transgender people, it is the case that the Equality Act and various pieces of legislation covering public order offences already govern access to gender-segregated spaces and services.

Any request to exclude transgender women from women-only spaces must be justified under that law.

The evidence suggests that transgender women experience significant sexual abuse and domestic violence, and already access appropriate women’s services to assist them. Such services must assess the risk any possible service user poses. Any woman, whether transgender or not, can be excluded from such services if they are deemed to place themselves, other service users or providers at risk. Given the lack of incidents involving transgender women in women-only spaces, there would have to be a strong case based on evidence to change the existing law.

The publication of the Women and Equalities Select Committee’s report did not change the Equality Act nor any of the exemptions legally allowed, and it is important to be mindful of the discrimination already faced by transgender people.

Liberal Democrats understand that the government intends its consultation on reform of the Gender Recognition Act to involve discussions with interested and affected groups, which will include women’s groups. Women have not been and will not be silenced during this process, Liberal Democrats will ensure this continues to be the case.

The number of transgender women is relatively small compared to the number of women overall, so it is unlikely there will be any substantial effect on data recording. It is the Equality Act that covers the concept of perception, so that if discrimination occurs on the basis that someone is perceived as a woman, then this counts as sex-based discrimination.

The current gender recognition process has been identified as cumbersome and costly, as well as demeaning to transgender people – they never meet the panel and there is no right of appeal. Other identity documents, such as passports and driving licences, have been obtained by self-declaration of gender for decades. The recommended changes cut an anonymous, bureaucratic process and give some dignity back to transgender people.

Whether by righting past wrongs, protecting citizens, or increasing freedom, Liberal Democrats believe that legislation defending rights and liberties protects individuals and drives opportunity for many under-represented groups. Liberal Democrats will continue to fight for the rights of these groups, including the rights of all women. If you have any further concerns, please do not hesitate to reach out again.

I do recognise that this is a relatively new debate, and I confess that I have already learnt a lot in the last two years of engaging in it - so please do feel free to respond to my reply, with any questions or concerns.

Even if we don't agree totally, I am genuinely keen to understand your views and position. Too much of the debate I've seen has regrettably not been conducted with sufficient respect for different views.

Thank you for contacting me - and once again, please accept my apologies for the delay in replying

OP posts:
FermatsTheorem · 21/02/2019 14:17

I'd be tempted to get back to him, either in writing or in person, and push him really hard on the practical consequences of self ID.

Ask him the hard questions:

How do we prevent transwomen with male genitalia convicted of sexual offences from being housed in women's prisons?

Given that some sexual assault victims suffer PTSD in the presence of men, can women legally set up a women's refuge which excludes transwomen?

Can a women's rugby league legally exclude transwomen on safety grounds?

Where women or girls have to use open-plan changing rooms (particularly pressing in schools), if a woman feels uncomfortable getting naked in front of an individual with male genitalia, who has to move to the broom cupboard? (Thinking of that case in America where an entire girls' high school swim team ended up crammed into the janitor's cupboard to change because one adult transwoman insisted on using the main changing room at the time their swimming practice was scheduled).

Ereshkigal · 21/02/2019 16:02

I note that he fails to mention Canada, in which there have been several instances of the self-ID law being abused.

Always.

GColdtimer · 21/02/2019 16:11

Apart from the last paragraph its the same as Layla "I can see their souls" Moran.

Go back and push hard.

SirVixofVixHall · 21/02/2019 17:42

Lib dems have become an absolute joke. Welcoming Challenor with open arms...ugggh.
At least we know who NOT to vote for I suppose.

Macareaux · 21/02/2019 20:37

If a man can call himself a woman and the press have to report him as a woman and it is a hate crime to dead name him, then if he commits a crime it will simply be a woman's crime. So how would we know if self ID had caused any problems because there is no recording category of transwomen, only women.
So stats might show, after a while, that women are becoming more violent but they will never show that transwomen are committing crimes and therefore there is a problem with self ID because no-one is allowed to name or record it.
Also, due to fear of committing a hate crime or being denounced as a bigot, many women will just stop going to gyms, pools etc if they have to share with penises. This won't be recorded either.

So his argument that "there haven't been any problems" is full of holes.

StupidyTower · 21/02/2019 20:41

Please remind your MP of Lynne Featherstone telling women who have any doubts that men can become women that they would not be welcome in the Lib Dems. (There's a good thread on this on this board.) Featherstone has done a great job of silencing women within the Lib Dems. So much for 'women have been heard'.

He is also wrong about the Equality Act not being impacted by reforms to the GRA.

What is his evidence that people can actually change sex?

You can also ask him about the Lib Dem's pro-prostitution platform and his evidence as to how this advances women's rights.

Show him a video of Alex Drummond of the Stonewall Trans Advisory Committee. It might make him think.

FermatsTheorem · 21/02/2019 20:43

Coming back to the Layla Moran comment up thread, you could also ask him for practical advice on how you are supposed to look into other people's souls in order to avoid inadvertently misgendering them and thus attracting the attention of the police and spending hours in police custody explaining your thought crimes. Because I must have missed out on "soul visualisation 101" during my education - I can't do it.

OlennasWimple · 21/02/2019 21:34

Sorry, I thought it was a terrible response

It's disingenuous to claim that women's voices have not been silenced in the debate

It's just wrong to claim that everywhere else is wonderful re self-ID

The response kept drifting back to "but what about the trans people", rather than centering the concerns, safety and dignity of women and girls

HermioneWeasley · 21/02/2019 21:39

Definitely see him., ask if it is Lib Dem policy (as has been stated recently) that they don’t want the votes of anyone who doesn’t magically believe humans can change sex? If it isn’t policy, they need to rein in their disgusting LGBTQIA twitter account who are vile. We have r cent examples of self ID being abused in this country - Karen White for example. A 10 year old girls was recently assaulted by a trans woman in supermarket toilets. A woman who requested a female nurse for a smear got a stubbly bloke who then argued with her about his gender identity. This is all happening now under current legislation.

JackyHolyoake · 21/02/2019 23:00

Send this to your MP:

ElfrideSwancourt · 22/02/2019 07:37

I'm an avid lurker on FWR, but feel I have to comment on this awful MP response - all I heard from reading it was about TW's (ie men's) rights etc nothing about women. A deeply depressing read.

Gentlygently · 22/02/2019 07:39

Definitely go and see him. That reads like a lot of cut and paste plus a little bit of personalisation, and the personal bits sound hopeful.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 22/02/2019 07:46

Do please get back to him, countering/giving a different perspective on every point. We need to re-frame the discussion in the minds of politicians. Brexit is dominant in all politicians minds at the moment, so they are not going to focus on this, but we need to keep drip dripping. The legal side of this debate (which ultimately is controlled by parliament) is every bit as important as the social side.

CandidPeel · 22/02/2019 08:00

Go and visit him! basic

Also : if you say who he is you might find others to go too Smile

CandidPeel · 22/02/2019 08:01

basic

CandidPeel · 22/02/2019 08:03

Third time lucky.... docs.google.com/document/d/14Xx_9nEtYmivg2B9JFFanhRwNz_phKT2olKkQ66x7fM Confused

ADropofReality · 22/02/2019 08:22

I and my party, the Liberal Democrats, are in favour of respectful and evidence-based discussion.

On the transgender issue, this is simply untrue, as this board has documented well.

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