#TeamNavratilova is gathering pace!

[SpeakUpXXWomen]

Firing Martina from Allies is working out to be an own goal as more people stand up and speak out on this.

twitter.com/hashtag/TeamNavratilova?src=hash

We know how twitter works in regards to women speaking out so perhaps this thread could be a place to gather excellent quotes and pictures for people to spread across other platforms and show that Martina's views are shared not by a trickle of support but a tidal wave.

I feel in need of a very nice #TeamNavratilova picture to put on my fbook, any social media gurus around to advise?

Conversation

BBC Radio 4 Today
@BBCr4today
Today: Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge (0710) questions whether she was misled by Jeremy Corbyn, something his office strongly denies; Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt on the Yemen conflict (0810); and marathon great Paula Radcliffe on transgender athletics (0730) #r4Today

Just spotted that autocorrect wants to make me look thick - raison d’etre, thank you spellcheck 😂 leave the poor grapes out of this.

More and more women feeling empowered to speak out about this ❤️

This is fantastic!

I've been following the TRA arguments for transwomen in sport. They are basically:

1. Hormone treatment weakens men so much, they're actually at a disadvantage or at least on the same level as women.

2. There haven't been any transwomen in the Olympics yet. If they genuinely had an advantage, they'd be dominating women's sport.

A few answers:

1. Not all transwomen in sport have had any treatment - they still have all the advantages of a male body. I think this was true of at least one of the trans competitors in Connecticut. This will only get worse with self ID.

2. Even if hormone treatment weakens the muscles, transwomen still retain other advantages such as height, lung capacity, bone structure etc. Also, despite personal anecdotes from some TRAs it's clear that in many cases, transwomen still retain quite a bit of their strength.

3. Britain was on the verge of fielding transwomen competitors to the Olympics in Rio (mentioned in another thread here).

4. Transwomen have been dominating other areas of sport... the Olympics are just a tiny part of the sporting world. It just takes one Rachel McKinnon or Hannah Mouncey to ruin sport for the female competitors.

5. I think (does anyone have more detail?) that there was only recently a change to the rules which made it easier for transwomen to compete. The effects of that won't be felt for a year or two yet.

6. In the future, what will stop highly competitive nations like China or Russia putting forward men who claim to be trans? There is precedent for rule-bending in the past.

7. If very experienced, high profile sports people like Daley and Martina are speaking out, you have to consider that they have a point. Especially as Martina worked alongside a transwoman, who as far as I know supports her position.

8. Some transwomen who participate in sport acknowledge that they retain male advantages (seen on Twitter, for instance).

9. Male and female sport is kept separate because of biological differences. Normally, tampering with biology using drugs is frowned on. If male-bodied people are being given drugs to weaken them, at what point do we judge they are adequately 'female' to compete in the female category?

10. The evidence is there in front of our eyes. Look at someone like McKinnon on the podium, towering over the women. McKinnon's body shape is still very obviously male. Look at Mouncey, or Hubbard. Read up on what it was like to fight Fallon Fox. There is no doubt that these athletes retain most of the advantages of their male bodies.

Good setting out of arguments!

For me, it boils down to women are not medically altered men, no matter the degree of alteration.

We don’t argue that a man with one leg joins the women’s events - people with disabilities campaigned for and established the paralympics.

Women’s sports aren’t a spillover category for anyone who can’t fairly compete with men - they are for women.

There haven't been any transwomen in the Olympics yet. If they genuinely had an advantage, they'd be dominating women's sport.

The rules were changed in 2015 and require a year of lowered hormones, so no one would have been able to qualify for Rio 2016.

I just can’t stop lolling at McKinnon talking about her “well crafted arguments”. They are appallingly crafted arguments, to the point they’re barely even crafted at all.

For starters, going on and on about testosterone and how reducing this removes any advantage while in the next breath arguing for the right to compete “without restriction”. Saying sport is a human right apparently without any appreciation at all of human rights or how they work - that (with one exception) they aren’t absolute and have to be balanced against other conflicting rights. None of what she says stands up to any scrutiny.

What was so interesting about Helen Islan is when giving evidence in court, there’s no get out of blocking, shouting bigot etc - you have to stand there and defend what you say against challenge. I would love to see Rachel McKinnon in this position - she wouldn’t last 5 minutes. By blocking anyone that doesn’t agree with her and refusing to submit to proper debate she has deluded herself into thinking she has far more credibility than she actually does.

Even on the science which she claims such expertise over, Dr FondofBeetles has totally eviscerated her arguments.

Someone should tell McKinnon that Jesse Owens had the decency and sense of fair play to compete against other men.
No woman has ever approached the times run or the distances jumped by Jesse Owens 83 years ago in Berlin.
Maybe someone should point that out to McKinnon if they really believe that there are no performance differences between male and female bodies.
What an odious, cheating POS McKinnon is.

I think McKinnon is realising that their dream of being carried through their hometown on the shoulders of the people, as a champion of both sports and trans rights, accompanied by cheers, music and ticker tape, isn't going to come to fruition. And man, the rage is palpable.

RK comes across as such a dislikeable human being, I wonder how RK got to be that way. No empathy, no humility, no decency, no respect, no integrity.

I just can't get over the fact that McKinnon has a PhD in philosophy. I mean that is all about logic, argument, etc

You might want to look at the title of McKinnon's paper...which is basically all about talking nonsense and getting away with it.

RK comes across as such a dislikeable human being, I wonder how RK got to be that way. No empathy, no humility, no decency, no respect, no integrity.

For avoidance of doubt, disliking an individual isn't transphobic. Many of us find some other TW perfectly likeable, or admirable in some way.

Quite. The problem with RM isn’t that they’re ‘trans’ it’s that they’re a truly despicable individual.

The problem with RM isn’t that they’re ‘trans’ it’s that they’re a truly despicable individual.

So true.

They just come across as obnoxious. Totally kwiw farm fodder

Anyone got a link to the interview that's provoked the narc rage?

Don't want this thread deleted for becoming a 'pile-on' (I'm still annoyed the one examining the lack of integrity shown by the 'I've got a PhD, I'm a Doctor' tweet was nuked).

So, apologies if I've contributed to a possible derail, maybe we should get back to making this a celebration of excellent women!

I know people keep blethering on about testosterone levels being lowered

But my understanding was that the accepted levels were about 10 for competing in women's sports

Which is much higher than womens

I know there was talk of lowering it to 5 (still high and doesn't take into account physiology) did that ever happen

I'd also like to see some ACTUAL levels talked about...not just someone saying they have lower levels than a women with no figures to back it up

errol I've got a copy of that thread before it went kaput so it hasn't vanished completely into the ether.

But back on track:

Martina and Sharron have retweeted this fact-packed thread from Dr FondOfBeetles

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1102695576678866944

Yeah this is the happy celebration thread. Let's stick to the remit.

Thanks EweSurname for adding more fabulous women to the list, bet there is loads more to report today

Tamsyn Lewis Manou is #TeamNavratilova
twitter.com/tamsynlewis/status/1102178548280778752
The female category is protected 4 a reason.If it wasn’t no female would ever win a medal

Patrick Henningsen
‏*@21WIRE*
As a former USS competitive swimmer & coach, I applaud #SharonDavies on her brave stance here. Trans athletes in women's sports robs girls & women of an important life experience competing in #fairplay competitions. Essentially, this is men pushing women to the back of the line.

twitter.com/21WIRE/status/1102890187800104960

Seems fairly balanced upon a cursory read!

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/paula-radcliffe-transgender-athletes-olympics-bbc-radio-4-a8807836.html

fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/harder-better-faster-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/

Grand Canyon between women and men

I was wondering if Martina had backup from more sports people in America (other than the tennis players who backed her up in the first day or two) or whether it was really the British sports women (+ Daley!) taking this forward. There are a couple of American coaches, and it's good to see that swimmer, but the ground work that fpfw and the other campaign groups had put in has given the British stars somewhere to start.
Tessa Sanderson has tweeted agreement with Sharon.

The book of mckinnon's thesis is available on amazon - only £83.00.