IAAF and the Semena Case

[MillytantForceit]

IAAF denies Times report that they want to call Caster Semena a male athlete if she refuses to lower her testosterone:

www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/iaaf-response-to-media-report

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/47233633

IAAF case looks good. A win for Semena would be seismic and perhaps the end of female athletics.

The IAAF press release contains this sentence: However if a DSD athlete has testes and male levels of testosterone, they get the same increases in bone and muscle size and strength and increases in haemoglobin that a male gets when they go through puberty, which is what gives men such a performance advantage over women.

This would seem to say that they wont allow transwomen who have gone through male puberty.

How can they acknowledge there are other advantages apart from testosterone, but then only require a drop in testosterone? The increase in myonucleii, VO2Max, muscle mass etc can't be undone. She either has a fixed unfair advantage or she doesn’t. Dropping testosterone levels doesn’t remove the fact Semenya has other advantages of male biology.

This case is important for arguments with people like McKinnon, who argues they shouldn’t have to drop testosterone levels. I agree with McKinnon, because McKinnon has male biolgical advantages that cannot be undone, so the only fair solution to the women in the competition is to not allow McKinnon to compete.

One of the main issues that every sport has their own governing bodies and can make their own rules. I can’t see how this is worse than that weightlifter or cyclist by any stretch. I feel sorry for her because of her personal circumstances but it’s right to say no as not fair on the thousands of her female competitors

The next paragraph is important, though, Mumfun:

“Therefore, to preserve fair competition in the female category, it is necessary to require DSD athletes to reduce their testosterone down to female levels before they compete at international level.”

But even when they decrease their testosterone levels, they still have the benefit of the increased bone size and muscle mass which the testosterone gave them. So they still have an advantage over women.

It does seem the IAAF might finally b waking up (no apologies for appropriating the ridiculous woke fad) but every sporting federation / governing body are free to make their own shit up.

I have no worries about mixed sex darts or chess. Actually think it’s a farce there’s two different competitions. But the more physical the sport is the greater the difference is, which makes power sports allowing trans competing in women’s rugby league, cycling, weightlifting absurd (and dangerous when it’s a contact sport like rugby). There’s some scumbag in MMA who felt nothing wrong with pummelling women which is a lot more extreme than crossing the finishing line in front unfairly

She even lives as a man

Genuine question - how do you mean "lives as a man"?

I mean, uses male pronouns, presents as male etc. Just something I read, maybe it's not true

That’s the first I’ve heard of that , I think that’s a bit speculative.

Caster Semenya is the most well known, but there are at least two other intersex athletes, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui allegedly, and in the last Olympics they went 1, 2, and 3 in the 800m.

This is what finally forced the IAAF to take action, when all 3 medal winners in a race were intersex it's hard to deny that they have an advantage over women.

I feel terribly sorry for Semenya and genuinely don't know what should be done about the situation. It's not her fault, she can't help how she's made up but there's no doubt she does have a ridiculous advantage over other women.

I've never seen anything about using male pronouns etc either and have read a lot of stories in the sports pages about her. You'd have thought that would have come up at some point.

Caster certainly appeared to be in a conventional male role at their wedding.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4099300/Gender-row-athlete-Caster-Semenya-marries-long-term-partner-helped-beat-haters-extravagant-white-wedding-ceremony.html

Another 800m intersex athlete is said to have posted of their 'sweet dick' to a potential partner. www.sde.co.ke/thenairobian/article/2001275880/800m-sprinter-margaret-nyairera-is-snatching-my-girlfriend-distraught-man

Again it would appear a fairly conventional male gender role

I think if Semenya did use male pronouns etc the papers would probably refer to her with them. I don't know if dressing in what some people would describe as a 'masculine' manner makes any difference. A lot of lesbians do that.

The point in this case is testicles (be they internal or external) produce testosterone, and this tends to result in a male gender identity after puberty.

FromEden

I thought caster semenya is a male with internal testes and no female reproductive organs? She even lives as a man despite competing as a woman

If you have a credible source for that statement, please post it. Otherwise that is thoughtless gossip that borders on the malicious.

Many lesbians present in a stereotypically male fashion, and many straight women are not particularly feminine either.

I say all this despite believing Semenya to probably be a genetic male who was thought be female and raised as such. Of course we have no public diagnosis for Semenya, so that is speculation.

I don't know what I think about the fairest way of accommodating athletes with DSD in sport. It's not my area as I don't really like sport - it's all just PE to me.

I do think we should be extremely careful not to use people with DSD to make any points in discussions around gender identity given that they have asked repeatedly not to be dragged into the gender shitfest. We spend enough time telling TRAs not to do that.

Anyone born with a cunt and subjected to female socialisation through childhood is a woman as far as I'm concerned, regardless of whether they have a y chromosome. Not everybody will agree with that and that's fine.

Why are we being pushed to accept that any rules designed around athletes with DSD should also apply to trans athletes? The context is completely different. DSD are rare, especially those which give apparently female athletes an unfair advantage over XX female athletes. You can't self ID as having a DSD, despite many tra's trying - these are medical conditions for which there are verifiable tests.

I don't know what's fair in this case and the IAAF statement seems nonsensical to me but any bespoke solution designed around athletes with DSD has nothing to do with unequivocally biological men taking over women's sport and we should resist this conflation.

pencils

This is an area where there is a crossover. If an athlete with a DSD is shown to have the benefits of male biology giving them an unfair advantage then there’s no way a male without a DSD could argue that they don’t have the benefits of male biology. The exceptions are, and where there shouldn’t be appropriation, is where the athlete’s DSD is of the type where it is deemed significant advantages of male biology have not been conferred. The best example of this would be complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) where no male puberty has occurred, but it needs to be noted that this condition may be statistically over represented in elite female athletes as it still may offer some skeletal and respiratory advantages.

I just hope that in the deliberations there is much greater focus on all of the benefits of male biology that are not testosterone. It’s ridiculous and baffling that the blood level of this hormone is seen as the only thing that matters.

This article from 2016 is long but worth the time - intersex women have been treated very poorly, especially in comparison to trans identified males competing in womens’ Categories.

www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html

Some athletes with DSD who appear female have an unfair advantage over female athletes because of a disorder. The IAAF statement is ridiculous and baffling, I agree, but this should have nothing to do with trans. Whether the rules are brilliant or batshit wrt intersex athletes there's no reason at all to extrapolate them to trans people who are unequivocally male or female.

We don't need to drag in athletes with DSD to show that males are physically stronger, faster, bla bla than females. It's obvious anyway.

We shouldn't be using people with DSD in our arguments at all.

TRAs shouldn't be using people with DSD in their arguments at all.

That's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.

There have been posts about Caster Semenya on mumsnet in the past where people have claimed she 'lives as a man'. No one has ever given a source for this speculation though.

I don’t think it’s about dragging intersex athletes into arguments. I think it’s about sporting organisations setting a precedent of segregation of sports by sex. If there is a clear ruling from Cas in this regard, it will provide fair participation for women and girls, and can be applied across the board to all arguments about who participated in female sport.

Like it or not, this ruling will impact the arguments of participation of trans people in female sport, because regardless of how different the two areas are - DSD vs trans - we now have a ridiculous situation where a number of sports, eg track cycling, want to completely ignore male biology. I don’t think anyone with male biology who has been through male puberty should be allowed to participate in female sport, and that applies to both DSD and trans.

I think it’s just as unfair for a male with DSD to compete against women as it is for a male trans person to compete against women, so in my mind when it comes to sport, these issues are the same. I think the motives behind the athletes are different and the circumstances are massively different - compare and contrast Semenya’s experience vs McKinnon and I know where my sympathy lies - but the bottom line is the same.

If a person is found to have an unfair advantage they don’t compete.

The IAAF needs to stop fannying around with testosterone and just say FEMALES compete against each other. A Male doesn’t compete against women in a single sex event regardless of testosterone.

I also feel for semenya- she’s not done anything wrong, and there’s an unpleasant history of saying butch female atheletes and black atheletes are Male as a way of bringing them down (look at the abuse the Williams sisters get online.)

However, even a Male with not a drop of testosterone ever (CAIS) STILL has height and physiological advantages. (It’s not clear exactly what condition semenya has and neither should it be as this is her private data.)

Testosterone should remain as one criteria, but we need to clarify that SEX is important. No atheletes need to be subjected to humiliating physical examination - genetic and chemical testing would do just fine.

Poor Caster. She really has been dragged through the mud on this.

I think competitive sport categories should be chromosomal. It will mean intersex athletes like Caster can't compete as women when they hit puberty and their biological sex becomes obvious. The disadvantage to occasional athletes with medical disorders or to trans athletes who love sport is outweighed by the huge disadvantage to women without a Y chromosome who have to compete against people with a Y chromosome.
Not everyone can get what they want here

I don’t understand how you can be born with internal testes and be a woman. Is it the lack of penis? If you have no ovaries or uterus & internal testes what sort of test makes you female?