IAAF and the Semena Case

[MillytantForceit]

IAAF denies Times report that they want to call Caster Semena a male athlete if she refuses to lower her testosterone:

www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/iaaf-response-to-media-report

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/47233633

IAAF case looks good. A win for Semena would be seismic and perhaps the end of female athletics.

It’s notable that only athletes from poor backgrounds get to this stage without a diagnosis

While I think this is generally true and almost certainly true in Semenya’s case, I do think that some national coaching teams could be tempted into wilful ignorance, their sense of fairness blinded by a will to win.

I am pleased that Caster’s medical history has been kept largely private, she is entitled to this at least. She seems very gracious, charitably minded and her wedding photos were lovely.

We’re always banging on about how intersex conditions are classified as Male DSDs and female DSDs - with science being what it is nowadays there is no reason to continue to allow people with Male DSDs to compete as women - those awful genital checks are thing of the past.

While this sucks for individuals who were unaware of their medical condition before it was flagged via success athletic competition it is the only way to ensure that women’s sport is reserved for female competitors.

The big question is how to rule someone ineligible whilst still maintaining their right to medical privacy - surely we can do better in this regard?

I’d also like to see some balance in how records and medals are handled - if a title holding athlete is ruled ineligible due to medical circumstances beyond their control, it doesn’t seem right to treat them the way we treat deliberate dopers. Caster is not a cheat, even if she is ineligible to compete going forwards.

I'm really glad this thread has gone better than the last one I contributed to (might have been around the time of the Rio world's?). I have just searched for it but it must have been in chat or deleted. That thread was full of people calling her a 'he' and a cheater etc. It was definitely mixed into the trans debate then but hopefully this shows that things have moved on and people are stopping shouting TRANS IS BAD at anything remotely related to gender issues.

"The fact that record has stood since 1983 is a strong indicator of doping in itself"

How about FloJo's 100m and 200m World records set in 1988?
How about Stefka Constadinova who set the high jump record in 1987?

"I’d also like to see some balance in how records and medals are handled - if a title holding athlete is ruled ineligible due to medical circumstances beyond their control, it doesn’t seem right to treat them the way we treat deliberate dopers. Caster is not a cheat, even if she is ineligible to compete going forwards."

Totally agree with this.

I agree there should be medical privacy in terms of final diagnosis, but with being an elite athlete you accept a loss of privacy in many ways. I swim, and I’ve seen the elite squad at the pool being drug tested. Teenage boys and girls have to pass urine in full view of an official, genitalia and all. While it’s horrible to have your previously unknown sex determined in a way that isn’t part of a medical assessment for such a problem, elite athletes put themselves into the open as part of open disclosure.

The solution is no one should be allowed to enter elite competition without thorough medical assessment at an appropriate age ie 16-18. As I said, the fact Semenya would have never had a period should have been a flag. In other athletes it needs to be ensured it isn’t solely amenorrhoea from excessive exercise (a sign a girl is over training anyway).

andy

Strong suspicion of yes to the first. I’m not familiar with the second.

For jarmila - For someone who is 32 to set a record that holds for 35+ years, through the advances in training that occurred in the 90s/200s - it’s certainly a statistical outlier.

As for flo jo...She absolutely shattered the 100m record (and I think the 200 too) so the level of the performance was an outlier in itself. The 100 tends to be nibbled away at rather than blown away. I think there’s been discussion about the wind speeds at that games as well.

Testing is much better now and doping definitely still happens but the mode is different - back in the 80s you could use pretty high doses but nowadays it’s often small interspersed doses of many different things, not just anabolic /androgenic drugs. Things like EPO in cycling, self transfusions etc.

Giving a woman testosterone for example will lead to a permanent alteration even after the drug is withdrawn. Doping is much more sophisticated these days

Bottom line is we will never know about flo jo, but it’s certainly a big statistical anomaly.

I feel sorry for Semenya but firmly believe she should not be racing against women. I have said this before here: I was in the crowd for that race in Rio and it was very clear by the crowd’s muted response that I am not alone in feeling that way. I also note that when she has suppressed her testosterone in the past she has become mediocre.

I’ve just been skim reading various materials on DSDs internationally - certain disorders have significantly higher occurrences in particular geographical reasons.

www.researchgate.net/publication/51408250_Disorders_of_sex_development_DSDs_their_presentation_and_management_in_different_cultures

According to the above, in some African regions DSDs are thought to be caused by witchcraft and the mother is blamed - I’m now berating myself for viewing the topic through my white, western lens!

Agree re: all top level athletes having to relinquish privacy for fairness testing and that being part of the job - but athletes shouldn’t have to worry about the public/press being given any details.

Would it be better to screen all top level competitors for chromosomal disorders prior to competing, rather than waiting until someone is singled out for being really good/not looking feminine enough? I’m torn! In most cases I would think that no one should be forced into medical tests against their will, but if that right is always relinquished by competing athletes, maybe blanket blood testing is the way forward?

I don't think what to do about athletes with DSDs should be conflated with trans issues.

I don't think there is any human right to be an elite athlete and it may be that some health conditions - including DSDs but also those that require certain drug regimes to control - will disqualify some people from careers as such.

I have great sympathy for the way Semenya has been treated over the years. It has been unedifying. But it's clear she has an unfair advantage.

It is notable that Caster Semenya has made moves to reducing her testosterone once she was made fully aware of her unusual medical status. It isn't her fault she didn't know the full extent of her differene. And it is only right that we never do!

Yes, she has received an advantage, a natural one, one she did not connive in or manipulate - a LOT different from trans athletes. Again, the two should never be conflated.

The IAAF should be able to do far btter thanthat load of waffle! The science is there for them to be far more rpescriptive. If the could get their heads around the politicisation of sex/gender they may well come up with something that works!

But bitching about an athelte who had no choice about how their body woudl diverge from 'the norm' isn't the right way to disuss this. Nasty!

I think it's important that this is clearly defined. I worry that the current guidelines would encourage unscrupulous coaches or poorer countries to boost their teenage female athletes with testosterone during puberty, then take them off it. They are genetically and biologically female, have normal testosterone now, but still have an unfair advantage, so it needs to be watertight against this practice (before it gets started). I think it will, every kind of doping has got going and we are very accepting of these medications.

Even in the UK, we don't know what we'd do with a trans boy who detransitions back to female after a male puberty?

I think either the male category opens up to all, the Paralympics have a hormone disorder (natural or trans- medicalised) category or we start handicapping races to adjust in some way and make these world records invalid.

Anyoldlabour funny that you mentioned FloJo's records. I think it's commonly accepted that she was chemically assisted, though of course it can never be proved one way or another.

I feel very sorry for Caster, who embarked on her career in good faith and has been dragged through the mud.

DSD are medical conditions that have absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism. It doesn't help anybody when sporting authorities conflate the two.

"It is notable that Caster Semenya has made moves to reducing her testosterone once she was made fully aware of her unusual medical status. "

No that is NOT true.

The testosterone levels of one or more athletes in races in which Semenya was involved were tested and there were athletes(s) (unnamed) with testosterone levels of 30 nmol/l. This compared to other disciplines where the highest level was below 2 nmol/l. Men's races were also tested and the highest testosterone level was around 35nmol/l.

Anyway, the athletics authorities have been trying different things, and one of the things they tried was testosterone limits, which required Caster to take testosterone suppressants in order to legally compete.

The first set of rules were effective between May 2011 and July 2015, when they were suspended by the Court of Arbitration for Sport following legal action by Dutee Chand

I am not quite clear how this would have worked in terms of time frames and how long the testosterone takes to have effect, but Semenya's last competitive time was in September 2013 (1:58.92), in 2014 failed to break 2:02, and at the 2015 WCs (26 August 2015) ran quite poorly in 1:59.59). However, in 2016, Semenya ran very fast, winning Rio in 1:55:28, and was similarly dominant at the 2017 WCs, and in 2018 even fast.

The new IAAF hyperandrogenism regulations were introduced on 1 November 2018, and Semenya has not raced since then, although that's nothing exceptional as the season hasn't started yet.

Anyway, Semenya has fought tooth & nail NOT to reduce testosterone. The new regulations are btw likely to hit even harder than the last ones, as previously the limit was 10 nmol/l, whereas it now has been reduced to 5 nmol/l.

Unfortunately dragoning, I think they are very intertwined when it comes to sport. Consider two scenarios:

1. Cas rules that chromosomal and biolgical makes who have been through male puberty have an unfair advantage over women and should not be allowed to compete. This is what I believe to be the case. A ruling like this would mean that any biolgical male, either someone who tragically has discovered their DSD in this process or someone who identifies as a woman but who is biologically male would not me allowed to compete. Result: fairness for women and girls, tragedy for Semenya, trans appropriation not allowed.

2. Cas rules that Semenya, despite male biology and advantages of male puberty, is by all other aspects a woman, albeit one with a genetic advantage. Result: Semenya’s immediate female rivals have no chance for the foreseeable future, and anyone else who believes themselves to be a woman despite what their biology is, will also be allowed to compete. Someone like McKinnon for example will argue they are just as much a woman as Semenya, with the same biolgical advantages (note: McKinnon has made this argument) so why shouldn’t they compete as a woman?

So I think in the context of sport, it’s relevant. I’d be interested if anyone has any other potential scenarios.

Oh? I did know all of that Mary and I agreed with her stance at the time. WHat is natural to her is natural to her!

But I had read somewhere that she had been asked to return to taking suppressants .. hold on... digging though the archives.

www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2017/07/04/caster-semenya-could-forced-take-testosterone-medication-study/

Ah! Ambiguous wording in taht one.

I see that it was conjecture...

www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/trackandfield/caster-semenya-iaaf-testosterone-limits-1.4646565

Though she hasn't commented publicly on the matter, it's believed that Semenya may have turned to hormone-suppressing drugs after the ruling, based on the way her results have ebbed and flowed.

Curious you missed out the context.

The hyperandrogenism rules were in place between May 2011 and July 2015.

Caster ran first very fast in 2009 winning the WC 800m in 1:55:45

2010 is an off year (no WC or Olympics)

In September 2011 Caster won the WC in 1:56:35

In 2012 Caster came 2nd in the Olympics in a not-exactly-slow time.

In 2013 Caster failed to qualify for the WCs ewn.co.za/2013/07/29/Semenya-needs-a-rest--Sepeng

In 2015 Caster performed poorly again at the WCs.

In 2016 Caster won 3 1500m, 11 800m, 6 400m, 1 200m, and came second only in 1 400m race.

In 2017 Caster won every 800m race.

And in 2018 again, 8 wins total.

If there was a rule in place between 2011 & 2015 it would not seem to be a voluntary reduction.

I thought caster semenya is a male with internal testes and no female reproductive organs? She even lives as a man despite competing as a woman
No. She lives as a woman, has an intersex condition and is almost certainly a female. I've not been able to find a definitive statement of what particular DSD she suffers from, but I've seen Hyperandrogenism - which produces high testosterone levels and is the most usual cause of PCOS - mentioned a lot. This affects only women.

That's wrong in most respects, GrumpyGran8.

Hyperandrogenism just means high testosterone, it is not a specific condition it's a description of someone's testosterone levels.

PCOS is a description of a set of symptoms caused by high testosterone. However it is not a condition either in that it doesn't have a specific cause. Also PCOS is not a DSD - a woman with PCOS is by definition not intersex.

In terms of intersex conditions/DSDs, 5-ARD is one DSD relatively common in athletes with DSDs en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_deficiency

Essentially it is a lack of DHT (androgen) resulting in feminized genitals at birth (the DHT is important in utero for male genital formation) The person however has XY chromosomes, internal testes and is sensitive to testosterone. During puberty testosterone is produced in normal male amounts and the personal will typically develop a male gender identity.

Here's a brief discussion of 5ARD

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-imprinted-brain/201702/boys-will-be-boys-even-if-raised-believed-be-girls

In terms of PCOS vs DSDs, women with PCOS have testosterone levels that are well below the male range. In addition, PCOS is linked to obesity and other things - PCOS has no link to sporting prowess. On the other hand, an athlete with, say, 5ARD, is probably at a disadvantage compared to non-intersex males due to their inability to produce DHT from testosterone, but it wouldn't seem that they are likely to be disadvantaged compared to females without DSDs.

The problem with these cases is that you have one or more athletes with free testosterone levels of 469.3 pmol/l, according to published reports on a race in which Semenya, Wambui, and Niyonsaba competed. Given that it is so, the next question is obviously HOW is that athlete producing 469.3 pmol/l of free testosterone - they are obviously not taking steroids, so it is a natural biological state.

Now we know that women with PCOS are (a) not particularly athletic, and (b) in cases where even 5 nmol/l total testosterone is found (far below the ~30 nmol/l found here) very severely ill (at levels of 3 nmol/l you would experience hirsutism possible infertility, etc.), so it is very safe to say that these athletes do NOT have PCOS but rather have an intersex condition.

In terms of what we know about human biology, testosterone is produced in the testes, ovaries, and adrenal glands, however only in the testes in the volumes required to produce a free testosterone level of 469.3 pmol/l

So given that is so there really is no conclusion other than the fact that one or more of these athletes has testes, as how else could they produce so much testosterone?

The next point is possible saying - they have testes, they shouldn't be allowed to compete, that's obvious. The reply to that is 'prove it'. Because while some people would say 'it's obvious', when you're dealing with sport, you need proof. And these athletes do probably lack DHT, so they are at least deficient compared to non-DSDed male athletes in that respect.

So what the IAAF has done is tried to show that 'more' testosterone is advantageous and use that to exclude them. They have done this by looking at results in the different events and saying there was no correlation between higher testosterone and performance at athletics meets, EXCEPT for the 800m and a couple of others.

Statistically this is a bit of a fiddle IMO, because if you have a set of female athletes without DSDs, and you are comparing performance to testosterone levels, then you might well not find a correlation - it doesn't seem that for women there's much difference between a natural level say 1 nmol/l and 0.5 nmol/l testosterone in terms of athletic performance.

If however you add in three athletes with DSDs into the 800m event, who have MUCH higher testosterone levels, you are no longer comparing 0.5 nmol/l with say 1.5 nmol/l and saying 'nope, it doesn't matter for a woman if she has high or low natural testosterone', you instead have a tiny pool of data with 64 athletes in it, and 3 of them have testosterone in around the 30 nmol/l range.

And of course those 3 are winning. And the statistical test comes back saying 'testosterone is correlated with performance for 800m'. Which isn't necessarily accurate, because that correlation is coming from three athletes with DSDs!

But the IAAF have used this to make this ruling.

Personally I think it's a bit of a sham in the way they've done it.

But they need to have some 'science'. And most 'sports science' is anything but scientific.

Personally I would say that athletes who have testes producing testosterone and likely have viable sperm, etc., should in that particular case be classed as male.

That's obviously a 'feeling'. As we cannot ever scientifically prove that in fact elite athletes with say 5ARD have an advantage over those without it. Because the pool of people is far too small.

Hell, they are struggling to show that non-DSD men who have been through male puberty and have male skeletons and muscles and take 1 year of suppressants are not advantaged over natal women.

So good luck ever proving that someone with a rare condition is advantaged. Even though IMO it's obvious.

This is such a difficult situation, but I do think Caster has a huge advantage over females, so should not be competing with them. At the same time I agree its not right to put her in the same bracket as say..Laurel Hubbard who is clearly taking the piss and doing it just to cheat. Caster did not know, and did not purposely set out to cheat women, like many of todays 'athletes' do.

I do think the only 'fair' way to do it is keep female sport female only, no exceptions. I know that would be harsh on people with DSDs but..going the other way would be the end of female sport, there would be no point in competing at all. I also don't really think current testosterone levels matter that much, as has already been accepted, going through male puberty gives huge advantages that do not go away when testosterone is lowered later in life.

The thing that grinds my gears in all this is that these people with DSDs are being treated very differently by the powers that be than trans women are - look how much discussion is being allowed!

The reason? Obviously because these people have been declared non-men, and therefore fair game, whereas transwomen retain the privilege they started out with and can therefore quash all discussion.

Agree Butteryellow Transwomen are not treated like women. Evidently transitioning does not mean giving up male privilege.

The latest on this case.

www.timeslive.co.za/sport/2019-02-14-caster-semenya-will-fight-the-iaaf-in-court-and-not-in-the-media/

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/47233633

I think unfortunately that Caster should not be allowed to run in women's events, because of the lifelong advantage which testosterone has bestowed on her body.
It is sad, but women who have the natural low levels will not stand a chance against her, and this will also provide a further loophole which allows transwomen to compete in women's events at the Olympics.

Badly advised.

Her 'Natural condition' argument has been tried and rejected by men caught testosterone doping.

If Caster wishes to ‘run free’ in her natural state, she could magnanimously state that due to her advantage she will not accept any medal if she places in the top 3. That way she runs with women (as is a woman) but acknowledges her considerable advantage due to testosterone. That would be amazing.