Guardian vulvas...

[Alicethroughtheblackmirror]

It's there anything female the Guardian covers without feeling the need to include a male?

Surgical constructions are not the same as the female sex organs and it's insulting they have to be included in a feature on vulvas. Of 8 examples here, one is a male...

Me and my vulva: 100 women reveal all

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/09/me-and-my-vulva-100-women-reveal-all-photographs?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Properly got the hump,tho, over the interviewer asking the author if she thought the title 'womanhood'is appropriate cos trans...

Me too.

Can you just let the photographer talk about her photos of 100 fannies without hand wringing about whether her use of the name 'womanhood' was appropriate.

Never more appropriate I should say!

I then like the fact the TW says she makes no claim to having a womanhood.

There was a explicit warning on the penis article too.

I thought it was really good, I found it fascinating and educational. And then wondered what mine looks like!

That actually brought a tear to my eye, simple dignity and acceptance that she is not a woman and why it matters to women to acknowledge that.

It made me sad because she really wishes she could have been a woman (for whatever reason) and she knows this is as close as she’s ever going to get.

You couldn’t get much further from that “IT’S MA’AM!” video than her balanced, deferential approach. Happy to use she/her for someone like this.

Why does calling a project about vulvas ‘Womanhood’ imply that sex equals gender though? It’s quite literally about the biological sex-based reality of being a woman.

The transwoman participating seems to have her head screwed on with a sensible take on the situation - she’s fine with being a transwoman with a neovagina, and as a gender critical feminist I’m absolutely fine with that too, brava to her.

If you create something from penile tissue it isn't a vulva. Its a penis moved around a bit. It's a simulated vulva. So it shouldn't be included in a project about vulvas. Sometimes I pick up a bit of seaweed from the beach and pretend I have a horse's tail. It doesn't make me a horse and it doesn't make it a tail.

It is ok as women to say that only we have a vulva. It's offensive to tell us we can't celebrate our bodies in all their fabulous glory without including those who aren't women. It has now become impossible to do anything as women it be anything as women without discussing men.

I agree with you that it isn’t a vulva, jean but I personally found it fascinating to actually see what one looked like. I don’t think it looked authentic at all, even allowing for the differences in appearance of vulvas you’d normally see.

But if the views of a transwoman who has had surgery (but who isn’t claiming it’s a vagina and she’s a woman) get a wider airing, maybe that’s a price worth paying.

Why does calling a project about vulvas ‘Womanhood’ imply that sex equals gender though? It’s quite literally about the biological sex-based reality of being a woman.

I think people are so confused and terrified about this and have it so twisted in their minds that it's hateful to say that women have certain anatomy.

Sex is the biology of our bodies- either male or female. Gender is socially constructed, but that doesn't mean it's not real. It is very real and it shapes our identities and how we are raised. Not even the most ardent GC feminist is unaffected by the gender norms that have been imposed on her since birth and which shape how she acts and views herself.

Our biology determines which gender norms are imposed on us. If we are identified as female, we have female gender norms imposed on us, which cause significant restrictions on us. Most of us can deal with that, but some get the feeling that they are born in the wrong body and actively identify with the norms imposed on the opposite sex, to the extent that they feel that they can only live if they try to present as the opposite sex. But that does not mean that we all have an innate sense of gender. Gender is both external and internal- it is imposed on us externally, but becomes part of us, but it cannot be said to be innate.

So saying that showing female bodies is discrimination is wrong. Sex is gender in that gender is imposed because we are a particular sex. They are inextricably linked. Equally, we have to accept that gender does form our identity, as so many other things do. However, we need to constantly fight to challenge gendered assumptions and behaviour rather than passively accepting them.

As a pp said there was also a transman included in the artist's 100 penis' project too.

@FamilyOfAliens

But I think the point is that we are being forced to consider men whenever we talk about being women. That isn't ok.

Women are systemically disadvantaged from birth because of our sexed bodies. We are subject to physical and sexual oppression because of our sexed bodies. Historically our sexed bodies have led to our deaths, imprisonment and torture. You can't borrow all that - why would a man want to - by twisting a penis about. So frankly - when we have a project celebrating the diversity of one of the aspects of our existence as women that led to that historic and ongoing oppression and torture .... I think we can leave out blokes who haven't ever experienced any of it without any worries at all.

The whole project came across as pretty down to earth, imo. I'm only surprised the Grauniad permitted mention of female biological reality.

Obviously, massively eyerolled at the journalist's wokey-puritan comment asking if "it feels right to call a project about vulvas Womanhood, since it implies that sex equals gender." (the horror! imagine thinking that vulvas might have something to do with sex and being a woman!), And it calmly being pointed out that we can't ignore our bodies. Shows how utterly terrified some people are of even the idea of wrong-think.

I also found the transwoman inclusion interesting & informative and their comments on the matter quite pointed.

jean

I agree men can never experience that oppression and we shouldn’t have to include men in discussions about our sexed bodies.

Maybe I’m just a bit of a weirdo for being interested in knowing what this kind of surgery results in, as part of the wider discussion.

There was a trans man in the penis version of this from the same artist, and a trans woman in the breasts version.

I’d quite like to get the books, and actually think they would make wonderful additions to a school library.

What more effective way to counter the myth that bodies are uniform and should look certain ways, than those amazing 100 strong montages with not a single pair looking even very similar, let alone the same!

It’s the artist who chooses the participants, not the guardian.

I don't think it should have had to include the tw perspective at all. I completely agree about that. There is nothing offensive or "phobic" about womanhood being equated with vulvas , biological reality and sex

On the other hand, that person's particular comments in this case served to underline rather than undermine the whole point about not being able to ignore that biological reality. But I too would like to see a project solely focusing on women without having to consider males.

I'm in a "cool stuff on the internet" FB group where someone shared this.

Thread is full of men and women commenting to say it's cool/interesting/thanks OP etc.

There is one woman who has come out with the obligatory "Not all women have vulvas and not all people with vulvas are women", yet when you look at her profile, she makes a USP out of her femaleness (certain profession, name styling etc). So she spouts one thing but clearly believes and knows the other. Hypocritical cow.

I think that was a great article (except the interviewer trying to insert the ridiculous vulva=/=woman angle).

I really enjoyed reading what all the women had to say about their bodies. I wish the one they included with the longer labia hadn't been one who had had surgery.

I think the transwoman's contribution was excellent and welcome. Very matter of fact, "I'm not a woman, I don't have a vagina". Also I like that she says they've done a sterling job, I think they did too.

CallMeSir yes I very often find that these people are hypocrites. They say that gender has nothing to do with your genitals. Yet at the same time, they endlessly tweet about all male panels, how ‘men’ or ‘white men’’s opinions aren’t worth listening to, and joke about how they would love to not be able to hear men’s voices.
I do feel like asking how they can be so sure that the vast swathes of people they are referring to actually are men. How do they know that they don’t have female gender identities? But that would get me blocked in this new woke world.
I think my biggest problem with them is that they make sweeping generalisations that totally contradict their statements about gender identity. But more seriously, they seem to show no interest in challenging the social structures that allow men to behave in an oppressive and entitled manner. Instead they just say ‘all white men are problematic’ with no solutions offered.
One of them even said that she regards any act that she performs as a feminist act because she is a feminist, so all her actions are feminist. I wonder whether they all have popcorn between their ears or something. These are people with PhDs who hold themselves out as being public intellectuals.

It’s a shame that so much of this conversation is focusing on the one trans individual that took part. I suspect the artist would have been criticised whatever she did (comments on twitter screaming transphobia under the Guardian sharing the article). I suspect politically it was quite a smart move, and artistically its pretty interesting.

I was pretty fascinated by how different the pictures were and how different the stories are. It also made me think how ill acquainted I am with my own body as I couldn’t have picked one of the vulvas that was like mine - I have simply no idea. I wonder how much we can improve on that for younger women - be aware of your body and be comfortable with it.

I couldn’t pick my own out of a line up either, Gin.

I think for many of us that aspect (promoting being comfortable with the reality of your body) would have gone without saying, Ginsanity, hence the instinctive discomfort with featuring a body that isn’t real - that is a male body altered by cosmetic surgery. I understand that.

The story that has most upset me is the woman who underwent labiaplasty though. She describes essentially being raped - not knowing she had lost her virginity (due to being so drunk) until she was told the next morning to get the morning-after pill. She describes being convinced she needed to alter her body by porn and male surgeons - she doesn’t mention any psychological support.

Going back to this comment:
“I ask Dodsworth if it feels right to call a project about vulvas Womanhood, since it implies that sex equals gender”

I have just scanned the penis version and I don't see a similar one. Very telling...

CallMeSir it’s really interesting isn’t it! I wonder whether a penis article published now would have the same bollocks gender line in it. I doubt it. It’s possible too that a womanhood article published in 2017 wouldn’t have raised it either, given how fast woman has become a troublesome word. Lots to think on.

I actually found the second one almost as disturbing as the one who'd had labioplasty. She thinks of her vulva as being like a pretty pink cupcake and when she has sex, the man's penis is like a knife slicing into it. What a hideous, violent image.

it was the artists choice to include the TW, so I guess it's up to her- personally I wouldn't have, BUT, I think it was still interesting and I found that person's story to be honest and respectful of women's authentic experience. What I thought about the photo though was that the lower torso looked very male.