Can we be honest about homophobia?

[thatdamnwoman]

I'm a lesbian and I know lots of lesbians and socialise with lesbians. I think for a while, post-civil partnerships, I and many of the dykes I know thought we'd made it. Yes, we still had to regularly correct people whose default mode is heterosexual and married, yes we were aware of the slight pause or the embarrassed or frozen expression that flitted briefly across peoples' faces when we outed ourselves, but on the whole things felt better. Out in the street if lads in a car wound down the window to yell 'Lesbians' at me and my partner or friends, we'd cheerily say 'Yes, lesbians.'

Then last year at a public meeting where transgender issues were on the agenda a Labour stalwart, a woman I've vaguely known for years got up, in a hall packed with people from the left, people who call themselves progressive, and said something along the lines of 'I've never had much time for lesbians, but on this issue I feel for them.' And people clapped. Would they have clapped if she'd said Muslim/ black/ disabled/ blue-eyed/ tall women?

It felt like a kick in the teeth because as I know from experience, any women's service, women's charity or women's pressure group will have at its heart a lesbian or two. The two women's centres where I was a volunteer (both gone now) were founded and run by lesbians.

There's been a thread on MN in which at least one woman has bemoaned not being able to be a lesbian because she's not sexually drawn to women. There's such a thing as a political lesbian: a woman who decides to commit herself to women's causes and chooses to socialise with women and lesbians, often ending up in a companionate relationship with another woman, or more than one other woman. There are even a couple of small separatist groups that I'm aware of: groups of women who live together or close by each other and who try as far as possible to avoid contact with men.

I'd be interested in hearing honest thoughts about this. About why some apparently progressive and liberal women still have that slight intake of breath when it becomes clear that I'm the straight woman they thought I was. What is it that goes through your head? Be honest.

Ah, that's better, fixed it. To go back to that point about gay men wanting their own spaces away from women, even if it's not coated in misogyny, well, yes, that's a thing too, thats what gay saunas etc. are all about, and I've no problem with that at all.

Although, obviously, there often hasn't been much of a need for gay men to insist on their own spaces away from women because women haven't been clamouring to over run gay male spaces. Plus women are consistently useful to men, even if they don't want go have sex with them.

I'd be interested in hearing honest thoughts about this.
I'll be very honest, and it might sound controversial, I don't know.
I think the alphabet soup needs to go, certainly the L needs to get out. All the lesbians I know bar one or two "kinksters" (who, to a woman, had abusive histories, but that's another thread) have the kind of wants, needs and dreams that bog-standard ordinary people have. I consider myself very much a common-or-garden homosexual. I don't ape heterosexuality, and prefer the idea of civil partnership to marriage (which is a very minority view I know). But I'm concerned with things like not being sacked for being gay, not being attacked, being able to be treated as equal in the workplace, that kind of thing. The bar is pretty low for me in that respect.
I don't perform my sexuality as a gag for straight people to laugh at like some camp gay men do. I don't spend all my time with people of the same orientation as me, I have mostly straight friends, I don't go to bars/clubs/cottages to hook up. There isn't a huge online lesbian presence, a lesbian hook-up app (several have been launched but no success a la Grindr) and lesbian bars have all closed. (This is not a good thing!)
I guess what I'm saying is there's not much to package up, there's no glitzy glamour, there's no edgy sexual behaviour, we're just women anyway (so far less exciting than men) and just want to get on with life!
So it's easy to ignore us. Plus with internalised misogyny and internalised homophobia it's harder to be gung-ho about being a lesbian. When I was younger I always called myself gay, because even the word lesbian was too cringey.
If we assume a good proportion of lesbians have those internalised issues, another chunk are closeted, another chunk are hostile to butch women, and another chunk are political lesbians with more intellectual desire for women than sexual, we're talking about what is really a very fractured group of the 51% of people with less money, more caring responsibility, less personal freedom etc.
Also if a man comes out as gay later in life, post straight marriage and kids (I've seen it plenty) he can launch himself into a bar and club scene with abandon. It's lots of fun, if not very good for your liver. A woman the same age is much more likely to be juggling kids and work and just isn't able to relaunch as a newbie like that.

Oh come on, drag is a big part of gay male culture and it’s as misogynistic as anything. The horrible characatures of womanhood and all the disgusting fish jokes. Don’t be a lesbian near the front at Pride, the insults are horrible.

Women aren’t respected much.
Lesbian women are respected even less because they exclude men from having sex with them.
I’m actually incandescent with rage on behalf of lesbians and I’m heterosexual.

It’s interesting the point around people not thinking it’s real sex unless it involves a penis.

I wonder if that’s why gay male culture is allowed to be centred around the penis.
A man is allowed to say ‘I just love cock’, and people don’t blink.

But apparently it’s wrong for a woman to say ‘I just love vaginas’ because that makes them a vagina fetishist.

Because people don’t really see lesbian sexuality as a real thing they can’t understand why they can’t just bunk along and let the cock in.

We had someone on another thread earlier saying that lesbians shouldn’t care about having sex with penises because they use strap ons.

Maybe it’s a response to your isolationist ‘political lesbians’.

None of the political lesbians I know are isolationist. I wouldn't even describe the separatists as isolationist: they're too pragmatic for that.

The political lesbian I know best works with men every day, helps look after her elderly father and is a good aunt to nephews. But she chooses to socialise, live with and focus her energies on women. She loves women and doesn't want to waste time and energy on random men. The only thing she doesn't have is sexual desire for women: for all I know she has no sexual desire for anyone/ anything.

I sometimes struggle with the fact that in the eyes of the world it's who I share a bed with that defines me when actually the most powerful and important thing I've done is turn my political, intellectual and emotional focus away from men towards women.

Lesbian women are respected even less because they exclude men from having sex with them.
I think you're right. I have the dubious privilege of being seen very often as "one of the boys". On the face of it, it's useful. But in reality it's even more disturbing because I get the unfiltered version of men. I can't withdraw from men altogether, my life and work wouldn't allow it, so I exist in this place between the two stereotypically warring sexes. I get to hear the deepest darkest secrets of heartbroken men and I get to hear the disgusting misogyny from the fresh-faced and innocent. I posted that all men use porn on another thread, I sincerely believe it to be true because that's what they've all told me!
But my current existence as "one of the boys", although unwanted and unprompted by me, protects me from the outright hostility that still exists. A butch woman is a challenge to a man. How dare I perform masculinity! Easier for them to treat me as a weird kind of eunuch.
I've been attacked a few times, and as an actual woman am acutely aware of the difference in size and strength between me and the "boys". So it's an uneasy situation really. And I keep my ear to the ground for homophobia. If/when open hostility is socially acceptable again, I'm at risk.
And I've cultivated a work persona that means I'm a ball breaker, large and in charge, etc etc. I still get anxious but I don't show any fear any more.

I sometimes struggle with the fact that in the eyes of the world it's who I share a bed with that defines me when actually the most powerful and important thing I've done is turn my political, intellectual and emotional focus away from men towards women.
Do you not think one is shorthand for the other though?

'I've never had much time for lesbians, but on this issue I feel for them.'

Maybe 'never had much time for lesbians' refers to a lack of interest, rather than actual dislike?

To me, a person's sexuality is irrelevant unless one of us is interested in a potential sexual relationship with the other. It's otherwise none of my business.

AFAIK I am hetero (AFAIK, because lack of something does not define its non-existence) and would, therefore, generally make hetero-normative assumptions. I might, I suppose, have an "oh, right" moment when meeting Anne's wife, Mary, but that's as far as it goes, for me.

Until Mumsnet, I didn't realise how political not being hetero-normative was. I understand now that being lesbian is more than 'just' a sexuality.

One thing I’ve encountered with younger men is that lesbians seem to be the ultimate male conquest. Not only are they massively upset that lesbian women aren’t sexually attracted to them but also that lesbian women don’t often fit the tropes they see in porn (long nails, under 20, immaculately shaven etc). I guess they feel threatened and insulted that actual lesbian women do not need and/or desire them. I guess with so few lesbians being represented in mainstream culture they rely on the misogynistic stereotypes they see in porn, only to be confronted with reality when they meet one in school/work/social events.

I’m not sure I’ve ever done the intake of breath when a lesbian has introduced themselves as such although I did work with one woman who in every way possible was a typical vision of ‘normal’ femininity, I do remember being surprised when she introduced me to her partner as there were no indications that she might be gay. That is, of course based on a pigeon holed assumption that all lesbians fit the ‘butch’, gender non conforming narrative which I can see now was very much based on my own prejudice. I try not assume anything about anyone’s sexuality now although it is difficult to not make an initial judgement due to what is the widespread ‘norm’.

Flying Oink, yes to all you say. Perhaps there are a couple of lesbian clubs and bars still going (too old to know) but a great many lesbian lives are grounded in the reality of earning a living, paying the rent and raising children or caring for elderly parents.

the most powerful and important thing I've done is turn my political, intellectual and emotional focus away from men towards women.

It's the minimizing of this aspect of being lesbian that winds me up so much. I have known lesbians who never slept with anyone in their life, but they were still lesbians. Being a lesbian is not solely focused on sexual activity, and I've had conversations on FWR with people trying to argue that if a woman has never had sex with another woman, she's not a lesbian. Which is just basic 'heterosexuality as default' stuff, and comes with a hefty chunk of 'women as automatically available to men unless they actually say no' too.

I wouldn't say it's isolationist to want lesbian spaces any more than it is to want female spaces full stop. I can remember being delighted at finding small groups of lesbians when I was a teenager, and watching documentaries that covered lesbian bars in San Francisco with hungry eyes because it's incredibly lonely often to be a teenaged lesbian. If I was starting again now, I wouldn't have a clue where to go, tbh.

because it's incredibly lonely often to be a teenaged lesbian. If I was starting again now, I wouldn't have a clue where to go, tbh
It can be really difficult to find other lesbians because of the "lack of free time and finances" issue. This is why online spaces were so important but they're all going too, or being infiltrated by AGP men dressed as Little Bo Peep.

FloralBunting, I couldn't agree more. There are lesbians, of course, for whom the politics and woman-centredness doesn't really exist. I know women who socialise in straight circles and think straight (IYKWIM) but just happen to want to have sex with women. And I'm sure there are lesbians who are a core part of lesbian groups and culture who, if they've ever had sex with a woman at all, haven't done so for a very long time.

I'm a bit worried though about the lesbian identity label because if a woman who has never had physical sex with another woman can self-identify as a lesbian, where does that get us on other aspects of self-ID?

As for lesbians not being 'cool' I have to disagree. When I was young I only looked up to and wanted to be like men - because of the skewed sexism of the media really. I simply didn't know what a role model was.
I didn't get it until I started moving in feminist circles and meeting ferociously intelligent, daring, dynamic and awesome women who could leave me a bit star struck and tongue-tied. Of the ones who made me think "I want to be like you when I grow up"' they were ALL, without exception, lesbians. It was the first time I felt I actually experienced 'looking up to' people. I am still yet to unpick why the het women didn't have the same charisma.

It bugs the shit out of me that young lesbians have no idea about the cool older lesbians.

Tbh, I was very deliberate in avoiding the phrase 'identify as a lesbian'. I used the phrase 'being a lesbian' because I'm trying to steer clear of lesbian being an identity that is possible to put on like a badge. Wrt to 'choosing' to be a lesbian for the reasons discussed upthread, that's covered by the phrase 'political lesbian' iyswim.

I was sexually attracted to women well before I ever had a sexual experience with one. Now, I don't call myself a lesbian now because I don't think it's a) accurate, as I do occasionally find myself attracted to men and b) even though I spent a large part of my life solely attracted to women, I don't think it's at all helpful to still claim an 'identity' because I think it undermines the rights of lesbians to define their own selves and boundaries.

I'm laying that out because I really think it's important. So, with that said, obviously lesbian sexual experience is a big component of being lesbian and I'm not trying to dismiss that at all - I'm just saying it's not the whole picture and can be used as a leering sort of reduction by those of a mind to. As always, the truth is about avoiding extremes and imbalances. 'Being lesbian' is a simple statement of fact, like 'being brown eyed' or 'being a woman'. It's a state of being rather than an 'identity'.

WeRiseUp have to agree with you on the cool factor, it is definitely there. I think it’s the, owning who you are are without any apologies.

The story of Annie Lister, and the controversy over her plaque was raised in a Facebook group I'm in.

The amount of people who objected to the word "lesbian" was astonishing. They had no idea that the controversy was actually about the attempt to "trans" annie. Women that loved another woman was fine. Lesbian was not.

So sad it's still like that.

I’ve only recently discovered a whole raft of butch lesbians through Twitter. I’m currently married to a man, but if I started a new relationship now, I think I’d choose to be a political lesbian. I think lesbians are cool!

It bugs the shit out of me that young lesbians have no idea about the cool older lesbians.
Agreed, but there's cool and there's cool.
ferociously intelligent, daring, dynamic and awesome women who could leave me a bit star struck and tongue-tied are admittedly very cool but that's in a less obvious way. I don't want to tar all young people with the same brush, but it's easier to admire someone for being conventionally attractive and complying with whatever fashion and music norms are around at the time.
It's easy to tear down an intellectual giant if she's an unattractive woman. Look at the crap levelled at Dworkin, for example.

it's easier to admire someone for being conventionally attractive and complying with whatever fashion and music norms are around at the time.

This is probably i've always gone down strange roads in my life - I have never really liked things I am 'supposed to' like so I never really found what was supposed to be cool, cool.

The young lesbians I know are mostly pretty hedonistic and call themselves 'gay' - not very political and would probably be a bit intimidated by the more charismatic older lesbians- but they are still drawn to women-only stuff though, more so than straight young women.

Most homophobia is really mysogyny. I have met very few homophobic women but quite a few homophobic men and a tiny minority of women with internalised mysogyny who claim to dislike any type of women that men dislike, including lesbians and femimists.

Gay men and lesbians undermine the patriarchy but particularly camp men and butch women who effectively advertise their subversion of gender roles

The young lesbians I know are mostly pretty hedonistic and call themselves 'gay' - not very political and would probably be a bit intimidated by the more charismatic older lesbians- but they are still drawn to women-only stuff though, more so than straight young women.
Agreed, and I feel that they should be able to have those spaces. I'd hate to be 18 now. I'm not sure how to help though - apart from being a role model for young lesbians at work, which I hope is helpful. Perhaps part of it is the move to online socialising (gay bars having been traditionally bankrolled by gay men who are meeting other gay men on Grindr now) and part of it is reduced overt homophobia (so a night out in the local is perfectly possible so why traipse across town to the gay bar/s)

I was a big fan of the gay local, there were always a great mix of different ages and backgrounds who drank in them but they're disappearing and I must share some of that responsibility, because I don't have the time, money or inclination to hang out in any pub all the time any more! I just don't think online interaction is the same, or builds the same sense of community, and I was always involved in online groups even many years ago. The difference is we used to use the online forum/chat room/IRC/etc to arrange meets, nights out and handholds for newbies and I'm not sure that happens as much now.
I think the move to virtual life means less visibility, and the notion of a post-gay world, where common or garden homosexuals are passé and don't have any specific needs.

Such an odd thing to say.

I wonder, do you think she meant to say something more like ‘I’ve never much concerned myself with’ but clumsily substituted ‘I’ve never had much time for’ which has a different meaning?