Can we be honest about homophobia?

[thatdamnwoman]

I'm a lesbian and I know lots of lesbians and socialise with lesbians. I think for a while, post-civil partnerships, I and many of the dykes I know thought we'd made it. Yes, we still had to regularly correct people whose default mode is heterosexual and married, yes we were aware of the slight pause or the embarrassed or frozen expression that flitted briefly across peoples' faces when we outed ourselves, but on the whole things felt better. Out in the street if lads in a car wound down the window to yell 'Lesbians' at me and my partner or friends, we'd cheerily say 'Yes, lesbians.'

Then last year at a public meeting where transgender issues were on the agenda a Labour stalwart, a woman I've vaguely known for years got up, in a hall packed with people from the left, people who call themselves progressive, and said something along the lines of 'I've never had much time for lesbians, but on this issue I feel for them.' And people clapped. Would they have clapped if she'd said Muslim/ black/ disabled/ blue-eyed/ tall women?

It felt like a kick in the teeth because as I know from experience, any women's service, women's charity or women's pressure group will have at its heart a lesbian or two. The two women's centres where I was a volunteer (both gone now) were founded and run by lesbians.

There's been a thread on MN in which at least one woman has bemoaned not being able to be a lesbian because she's not sexually drawn to women. There's such a thing as a political lesbian: a woman who decides to commit herself to women's causes and chooses to socialise with women and lesbians, often ending up in a companionate relationship with another woman, or more than one other woman. There are even a couple of small separatist groups that I'm aware of: groups of women who live together or close by each other and who try as far as possible to avoid contact with men.

I'd be interested in hearing honest thoughts about this. About why some apparently progressive and liberal women still have that slight intake of breath when it becomes clear that I'm the straight woman they thought I was. What is it that goes through your head? Be honest.

There are so many things to unpack... in real life in my area, there are loads of lesbian couples with children at the school. Honestly no one thinks twice. There is a bit of gossip when a mum leaves a relationship for another woman, but only the same as when anyone has had an affair and split up.

Celebrity gay men are more visible partly because of the whole 'camp' thing. You can't make sexuality assumptions about unfeminine women.

I am getting much better about not assuming people are straight, so I'm not having that small pause anymore!

I've never come across an anti-woman sentiment among gay men.

I'll respectfully suggest you haven't been paying close enough attention, then.

I'll respectfully suggest you haven't been paying close enough attention, then.

The misogynist shit I have to quietly mute from my gay male friends on social media would set your hair on end. It's fucking relentless. I don't know why they assume women don't mind or will be laughing along. It is insane.

I grew up with a lot of homophobia freely expressed by my peers (probably pretty typical for schools in the 00s) and remember being terrified I might be a lesbian, so I suppose I was homophobic. I can only imagine how horrible that environment must have been for the children in my school who actually knew they were gay or lesbian. Certainly no lesbian ever came out there all the way through 6th form, though there must have been some. From what I hear, children and teenagers are less overtly homophobic these days than they were in my day.

I remember one time I kind of fucked up when a co-worker told me she was a lesbian. She phrased it by saying that she 'was not entirely straight'. I said 'OK cool' and assumed she meant she was bisexual. That is not what she meant and I later made some comment that made me look like a complete arsehole by assuming she had some attraction to men. Apart from that incident I would like to think I have not behaved badly to lesbians, though I suppose I do tend to subconsciously assume 'straight until proven otherwise' - despite this, I don't think I do a double-take or intake of breath when women tell me they are lesbians.

I definitely have a lot of time for lesbians now, especially feminist lesbians. I think you have a really valuable insight and perspective that comes from just not needing the acceptance and validation of men at all, being totally female-identified and female-centred. It's no surprise to me that lesbians have always been at the forefront of feminism and it's also no surprise to me that some men seem to perceive the existence of lesbians as a personal affront.

I think perhaps homophobia against men should be distinguished somehow from lesbophobia, as it seems to me to be a somewhat separate phenomenon in many ways.

I've never come across an anti-woman sentiment among gay men.

Really? They can be every bit as misogynistic as straight men.

I generally make more effort with lesbian couples at work. It just makes me happy to see lesbian couples because it makes the world seem more pro women and thus safer.

I’m another who doesn’t really socialise with men. Sex segregation in friendship groups is still fairly commonplace.

There's been a thread on MN in which at least one woman has bemoaned not being able to be a lesbian because she's not sexually drawn to women.

That comment from a poster on the other thread, was in relation to the behaviour of violence, misogynistic men and how much easier, (in relation to the bad behaviour she’s experienced towards her from men) it would be, if she had a female partner. if I remember correctly, the poster went on to say they’d never act as if they were a lesbian, as that would be unfair. She wasn’t commenting on how lesbians are treated by some in society.

I’m actually quite shocked that women would behave strangely if they found out a woman was a lesbian, in this day and age. Men behaving like creepy prats towards lesbians is nothing new and unfortunately, the way females are treated generally, is unlikely to stop any time soon. I worked in nursing for over 20yrs and maybe that’s why I think nothing of it. I must admit, when I was younger and growing up in a rural area I didn’t understand ‘why’ someone would be bi. . I’m older and hopefully more educated and open mined, in the ways of the world now.

Re my statement "I've never come across an anti-woman sentiment among gay men"..

I didn't mean to suggest it doesn't exist - I'm sure it does. But I haven't experienced it among the gay men I know personally. For the full picture, I don't encounter much misogyny among straight men either - reading things on here has definitely highlighted I live in a bit of a bubble.. I don't tend to 'hang out' in male-only settings, in person or online, so I don't experience it there either. But I do definitely think that there is an overarching sentiment of "lesbians dont need men" that doesn't exist in quite the same way for gay men not needing women - as I said, the stereotypical "gay best friend" is pretty common in both my personal circles, and wider pop culture.

Bingo, you've conflated my post and another post. I didn't say

Frankly, I have never bothered with males socially, apart from relatives and a few okay gay men. Straight men, apart from semi-social occasions via work, why would I bother? They are irrelevant and of no interest to me. That was another poster.

Just generally, thanks for the feedback on what those momentary pauses are about. I have never known quite what to make of them but tended to interpret them as negative. Good to know that they may not be and I'll try not to go into ever-so-slightly defensive mode when it happens next time. I did go through a phase of trying to make light of it by saying something like 'Didn't see that coming, did you?' but it sometimes seemed a bit like an apology or a rescue and I decided to stop.

I know from all the lesbians I encounter that they come in all forms and as wide a range of opinions as the general population. Many (woefully in my opinion) are completely nonpolitical and many don't even make to the foothills of feminism. Quite a few of the younger dykes of my acquaintance are trying to balance being a lesbian and feminist (self-defined, so probably liberal) with being pro-trans. I think they're struggling.

@thatdamnwoman sorry

OP what a shit experience to be othered like that in that meeting. I am so sorry. Fuckers.

I absolutely agree that lesbian women’s energy and time is often at the heart of progressive organising and organisations- I remember lesbian protests on national news and abseiling into the House of Lords against section 28. Ditto Get the L Out and others now. They are brave AF and my absolute heroes.

that doesn't exist in quite the same way for gay men not needing women

I don’t think this is true.

There is definitely a ‘eww women’s bodies’ vibe amongst some gay men.
I think it used to be worse than it is now as they are quite rightly pulled up about it more, but when I was younger all my gay male friends used to make a joke of pretending to vomit at the bought of a vagina and etc

I can see how it started, all men were presumed to be straight so it was shocking and a political statement for men to say ‘actually no I’m not attracted to women’, but then it got moulded into general misogyny and became a tired old joke about how women’s bodies are disgusting.

And men will always need women, we produce the babies and feed them.

Technically we only need their sperm, we could just have a mass milking then swim off to a female only island and live in peace.

(I’m obviously joking. I like men.)

Given the reaction of many straight men to being asked to buy tampons etc and to childbirth, I'd hazard a guess it's more like:
All boys growing up: eww girls' bodies
Their dads: eww yes
Straight boys: well maybe there are some nice bits.
Straight young men: oh oops I need to be nice to my partner even if she's got her period and I do need to work out how to watch childbirth.
But gay young men don't need to do that.

If anything I’ve found gay men to be more misogynistic. Not all gay men obviously, but there are definitely a lot. Some of it I think is bog standard misogyny that a lot of straight blokes have, but some I think is for the same reason that some lesbians don’t much like men. I think it’s a casual disregard based on not being particularly relevant to each other, but because it comes with your usual garden variety misogyny, it can be incredibly vicious.

As for socialising with straight blokes, well no, I don’t. I always used to have straight male friends, but either they’d end up hitting on me or everybody would assume we were shagging. It’s just too much hassle and energy to get passed all that so I don’t bother trying. I’m sure if the opportunity comes up to have a platonic friendship with a decent man I’ll take it, but I’m not looking. This is where there is a false equivalence between saying one doesn’t bother with straight men as opposed to one doesn’t bother with lesbians. The dynamic between straight men and women is hugely different to that between women, even within groups of lesbians.

The pause and deep breath is interesting. Most of the time I think it’s just because people are embarrassed, or surprised. Sometimes people are genuinely disgusted. Not often but I’ve seen it, and their behaviour normally gives them away. Sometimes I think it’s more than that. For years I was crouched in the corner of the closet because I was afraid of what I am, so a bolt of fear would shoot through me whenever I encountered a lesbian. Some people I definitely get those vibes off, but then maybe I’m making just as many assumptions. Also there are the people who do the fawning super nice make a big deal out of it thing. My mum does this, yet she’s about as ew about lesbians as it’s possible to be. She loves a bit of social capital though, so now she can say ‘my daughter’s a lesbian,’ it gives her the opportunity to virtue signal and a bit of social license.

@Calvinsmam It might happen from a sexual/body point of view, but socially? Is it common for gay men to not really interact with females at all socially? Genuine question. Because that really isn't my experience, but of course as I woman I guess I wouldn't necessarily be aware of it

But now i see that lesbians are the canary in the coal mine for many issues affecting women in general.

Same here.

seriously, wrt gay men not being misogynist, I`m obviously glad you havent experienced it, but its really a thing. Im thinking of the kind of men who sniff the air when a woman walks in the room and mention fish. It really happens.

Maybe it’s a response to your isolationist ‘political lesbians’. Obviously I am not going to conflate actual lesbians with ‘political lesbians’ after reading that (although serious WTAF?) but I can imagine that someone who had had a bad experience with ‘political kesbiabs’ might be wary of someone who used the term lesbian until they could gauge what they actually meant.

My husband is friends with lots of lesbians, his girlfriend at uni was bi and was in a big group of lesbian friends and he just fell into that friendship group.
He feels much more comfortable in the company of women and prefers to read books by women and listen to bands fronted by women etc.

He said that if he was younger now he may have been swept away with the idea that maybe he had a ‘female soul’ despite every indication that he is a garden variety straight man.
Simply because it was so rare for a straight man to see women as people and enjoy their company without wanting to shag them. People used to make a big thing of it, and still do to a certain extent. They couldn’t understand that he hung out with them because he liked them, and enjoyed listening to skin, rather than he had some creepy motive or was emasculated.

I wonder how many ‘trans lesbians’ are just straight men who’ve never worked out that the reason that they like women and lesbians is because actually they’re pretty cool, and not because only women can like them.

I'd be interested in hearing honest thoughts about this. About why some apparently progressive and liberal women still have that slight intake of breath when it becomes clear that I'm the straight woman they thought I was. What is it that goes through your head? Be honest.

What goes through my mind is often envy. I have often wished I was a lesbian, and I'm perfectly happy if people think that I am. I perceive it as liberating from conformity to male sexual preferences.

I've come across a few women, over the years, who would be outrageously offended if anyone suggested they were a lesbian. I've never understood that. To me lesbianism is the ultimate in female solidarity, and as you suggest, many of the best organisations, bookshops etc have lesbians at their heart.

Ok I saw the lesbian bat-signal and had to contribute

In a nutshell, lesbians are women who reject men sexually. And an awful lot of men think that’s unacceptable. In that sense, the way lesbians are treated is a microcosm of the way women are.
This is probably true, not conforming to gender stereotypes is punished generally, when they punishment men dole out for it (othering, insults, lack of sexual interest, etc) is met with indifference this must be infuriating for men. Social expectations weigh heavily on women in general so a refusal to shoulder this burden in any way is worthy of suspicion from men and straight women. Straight women who have given up on men, older women who are no longer Barbie dolls and know their own mind, and women who reject men's advances all see the flash of anger from men as a result, too. It's half how-dare-you and half incomprehension.
I have always felt sympathy for women who have to come out to strangers all the time. I look very gay so I rarely have to; the flip side of this is being subject to more obvious prejudice.
The biggest sin I feel we lesbians have committed is not being cool. Part of me doesn't give a shit and part of me does, because in not being cool I feel I'm not enough of a role model to stop young girls feeling they need to transition.

@FloralBunting I don't doubt it. But to clarify, I said "anti-woman", not misogynist. I don't really think of those concepts as interchangeable, although obviously they are linked.

I know misogynist men, who are certainly prejudiced against women. That doesn't seem to stop them interacting with and socialising with women.
Whereas anti-man or anti-woman I think of as more exclusionary - along the lines of not needing men at all, they have nothing to offer me, etc. Mixing almost solely in single-sex environments. And it's that which I come across more of in lesbians than gay men.
I'm not sure how clear I made that in my first post.

But equally - it could just be my experience. As I am a woman, so I mix in mixed groups, and female-only groups, but obviously not male-only groups. So it's possible it's just passed me by completely.

oh, i get you. i still disagree, but again, obviously im glad you havent experienced it.

apols for appalling typing today, ive accidently put a foreign language keyboard on my phone and cant work our how to chsnge it. im off to do that snd may be some time.

I actually don’t have a problem with gay men wanting to hang out in all male places or just hang out with men. I don’t think they need to hang out with women any more than we need to hang out with men. It’s the misogyny I have a problem with.

In my younger days with a variety of friends the subject of sex when no penis is involved sparked a strange debate. People who questioned that being a lesbian could not be real sex and not really homosexual. It is not a conversation that I could imagine being said now but I do wonder if some people feel the same.