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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph article about Lib Dems

52 replies

2019StandingforWomen · 06/02/2019 07:23

Feminists not welcome in Lib Dems unless they support gender neutral toilets, says peer

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/05/feminists-not-welcome-lib-dems-unless-support-gender-neutral/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

OP posts:
welshgendercrit · 06/02/2019 12:07

Why are the LDs obsessed with souls?

My thought exactly. Makes me cringe to read it.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 12:16

Why are the LDs obsessed with souls?

The vast majority are not.

milkmoustache · 06/02/2019 12:20

Can Uber feminists get their licence revoked if it is revealed that they are unsafe and have lied about their credentials?

Redshoeblueshoe · 06/02/2019 12:27

Kind ?
I've been kind all my life.
I'm sick of being kind, it's got me nowhere.

LangCleg · 06/02/2019 12:54

The issue though is cross party and focus should be on those who are influencing MPs, policy and legislation. Some will seek to make gains from focus on LibDems, just as they may Greens or Labour especially at such a critical time for Westminster. Its important to recognise the role that Maria Miller MP and other Conservatives have also played in preventing women's concerns being heard and denying discussion about women's rights and safeguarding.

This. We're not in the middle of party politics here. We are struggling to find a path in an environment where many political parties, institutions and third sector orgs are being heavily influenced by a narrow band of lobby groups with a very specific focus.

People of different political stripes need to be aware of this and they also need to understand how the various intersections can be exploited.

Threewheeler1 · 06/02/2019 13:00

It's a bit unpleasant/confusing of Lynne to tell us that we're not being nice and we can't call ourselves feminists because we refuse to stop centering women in our feminism.
I'd like to see the 'uberfeminist' job description so we can clarify what it is we appear to be doing wrong.
Welcoming 'new women' into our spaces sounds like a nice, embracing sort of thing to do...but what happens when some of those newly-minted women are actually predatory men with a shiny new license to prowl wherever they wish? Lynne needs to explain how to prevent these men from getting in and harming both the 'new women' and us bog-standard/ been-doing-it-all-my-life ones.
I suspect, if she really looked at the risks instead of being so uber-magnanimous about giving away our privacy and protection, she might end up suggesting something along the lines of sex-segregated spaces Hmm. It's an uber-novel idea.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 13:54

It's a bit unpleasant/confusing of Lynne to tell us that we're not being nice and we can't call ourselves feminists because we refuse to stop centering women in our feminism.
I'd like to see the 'uberfeminist' job description so we can clarify what it is we appear to be doing wrong.

I think there are many people (some in the LibDems) who have been influenced into a comparable role to 'flying monkeys' for some TRAs.

cf 'Flying Monkeys (The Narcissist’s Tool for the Smear Campaign)'
(extract)
"First of all flying monkeys are also known as the:

entourage
accomplices
enablers
extension of the narcissist
campaign managers
They’re out there recruiting other people, kind of in a way like religious people might knock on your door and try to recruit you into their religion. They’re trying to convert you into the religion of the narcissist, which is reality by the narcissist.

So the role of these flying monkeys is first of all abuse by proxy.

Abuse by proxy is when the narcissist gets other people to abuse you. That way the narcissist gets to abuse you but through these people. They’ll reject you, they’ll make you feel not good enough, they’ll shame you, maybe they’ll put you in a bad situation, they’ll tell you that you’re crazy, things like that. This way the narcissist looks like the one that’s clean. They’re not involved." (continues)

So who can become flying monkeys?

There are two different categories of people.

The first category is the naive.

The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.

This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.

These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding. (continues)

medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

Threewheeler1 · 06/02/2019 16:18

R0wantrees
That's a fascinating read, I'd never heard of them before but it's apt!
And now I'm seeing flying monkeys everywhere. The naive (Layla Moran), and the toxic type (Harrop) in the more outspoken TRA allies, whose main method of promoting trans rights seems to be through putting women down in some way.
Really interesting article, thank you (as always Grin)

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 17:31

That's a fascinating read, I'd never heard of them before but it's apt!
And now I'm seeing flying monkeys everywhere

Its important to be aware of coercive/narcissitic control and the mechanics of how it and gaslighting work, both in real life and online.
Its of course not contstrained by a person's sex or gender identity.

This article is also worth reading, especially the section, 'Gaslighting in Conversations. What does gaslighting look like in day to day conversations?'

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 19:04

We're not in the middle of party politics here. We are struggling to find a path in an environment where many political parties, institutions and third sector orgs are being heavily influenced by a narrow band of lobby groups with a very specific focus.

People of different political stripes need to be aware of this and they also need to understand how the various intersections can be exploited.

This ^^

Its important to be very aware of the motivations of people/groups with influence.
People who share a perspective on transideology are not neccessairily motivated by concerns for women and children.
Sometimes motivations will be political, sometimes personal.

There will be continuous attempts to co-opt the work that women have been doing whilst standing up for safeguarding and women's rights.

TimeLady · 06/02/2019 20:01

All politicians should be compelled to read the Trans Widows thread.

merrymouse · 06/02/2019 20:26

Its important to recognise the role that Maria Miller MP and other Conservatives have also played in preventing women's concerns being heard and denying discussion about women's rights and safeguarding.

Agree, but as far as I can work out Labour, Lib Dems, the Greens and the SNP will go ahead with self ID regardless of opposition.

Only the Conservatives seem to be interested in consulting and listening to other opinions.

I can't vote for any party that supports the anti-scientific, regressive 'sex doesn't exist' TRA line.

James Kirkup regularly says that MPs are frightened to talk about this issue. Maybe the prospect of a general election will focus their minds a bit.

OldCrone · 06/02/2019 20:32

James Kirkup regularly says that MPs are frightened to talk about this issue.

Why? What are they frightened of? If TRAs are issuing threats, that should be a police matter.

David Davies has managed to speak up on this. Why aren't more Tories doing the same?

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 20:54

Only the Conservatives seem to be interested in consulting and listening to other opinions.

The government was pushed to pause what seemed likely to be all of the proposals from Maria Miller's trans equality report including self id.
It should be remembered that Maria Miller rejected the concerns which have come to the fore with regards self-id as being from 'so called feminists'
Many of the recommendations and policies lobbied by TRAs are going through unchecked.

The Conservatives may seek to gain political capital by the fact that they did have a consultation. The context for this decision is relevent though, so too scrutiny of the process etc.

Its a cross party issue.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 20:55

David Davies has managed to speak up on this. Why aren't more Tories doing the same?

Didn't David Davies say that a cabinet minister had threatened him with some sort of serious sanction?

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 20:57

James Kirkup regularly says that MPs are frightened to talk about this issue. Maybe the prospect of a general election will focus their minds a bit

Its important for MPs from all parties to be alerted to the importance of this. They have all being very effectively lobbied (and no doubt pre-occupied by Brexit)

ChattyLion · 06/02/2019 20:57

The only way I can make sense of that speech is that Lynne Featherstone must have meant that she identifies as an ‘Uberfeminist’

merrymouse · 06/02/2019 21:08

Many of the recommendations and policies lobbied by TRAs are going through unchecked.

I agree - schools are being incorrectly advised and police forces are 'warning' people who have simply exercised their right to free speech now, under a Conservative government.

The problem is that it looks as though things would be worse under Labour or a coalition involving the Greens/Lib Dems/SDP.

I don't think the Conservatives have the political will to push self ID through because fundamentally most Conservative voters don't care. On the other hand I think Labour under the current leadership would.

Anlaf · 06/02/2019 21:14

R0wan

flying monkeys

HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS. I've spent hours actually solid weeks on the Relationships board. Flying monkeys so perfectly describes the people whipped into a frenzy of fawning support by, well, right arseholes. You can see this in the Lib Dems - a small core of people playing a larger group of well-meaning and very naive people.

merrymouse · 06/02/2019 21:15

Why? What are they frightened of? If TRAs are issuing threats, that should be a police matter.

I think they are frightened of being called transphobic, and believe the risk of commenting is greater than the risk of keeping quiet.

They believe that the upside is pleasing a few feminists, and who cares what feminists think? Unfortunately and bizarrely, losing the the ability to define sex is seen as a niche issue. Remember less than 1/3 of MPs are women.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 21:17

The problem is that it looks as though things would be worse under Labour or a coalition involving the Greens/Lib Dems/SDP.

It will depend on how aware parties become of the issues caused by translobby influence on policy.

The NHS sex/gender issues are out in the public awareness (these are Conservative issues to explain)

Increasing focus is on Mermaids (which has had considerable lobbying power and influenced school policy)

Questions continue to be raised about Stonewall which has also being gifted a great deal of power and influence.

It will likely depend on timing.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 21:20

You can see this in the Lib Dems - a small core of people playing a larger group of well-meaning and very naive people.

I don't think people should underestimate the manipulative power of some TRAs.

OldCrone · 06/02/2019 22:07

Didn't David Davies say that a cabinet minister had threatened him with some sort of serious sanction?

I'd forgotten about that.

The parliamentary commissioner for standards has launched an investigation into a Tory MP after he held an event with feminists who are opposed to planned transgender legislation.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-faces-sinister-inquiry-mr36m6p3m

Conservative MP David Davies says he has been threatened with police action because he held meetings in parliament on transgender concerns.

talkradio.co.uk/news/david-davies-threatened-police-action-holding-meetings-transgender-concerns-18101628380

Dia12 · 06/02/2019 22:13

Is anyone else wanting to snack a lot?

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 22:24

from the Times article linked above:

(extract)
"The parliamentary commissioner for standards has launched an investigation into a Tory MP after he held an event with feminists who are opposed to planned transgender legislation.

David Davies, MP for Monmouth, called the inquiry “sinister” and “unbelievable” and said parliamentary rules were being “abused” by transgender activists to deny freedom of speech."

Conclusion of the investigation:
tweet comment by Andrew Gillingham (Times)
"Latest bullying transgender complaint (against David Davies MP over We Need to Talk meeting) has been swiftly rejected by parliamentary standards commissioner"

Link to doc embedded:
www.parliament.uk/documents/pcfs/not-upheld/davidtcdaviesnotupheld.pdf

(extract)
'Letter from the Commissioner to Cllr Zoë O'Connell, 23 May 2018
I wrote to you on 27 March 2018 to say that I was beginning an inquiry into your allegation of a breach of House of Commons rules by Mr David TC Davies MP. I am writing now to let you know the outcome.
I have corresponded with Mr Davies and I have consulted the Serjeant at Arms.
Having considered carefully the evidence I have obtained, I do not uphold the allegation.'

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3263172-Andrew-Gilligan-Latest-bullying-transgender-complaint-swiftly-rejected-by-parliamentary-standards-committee

see also:
'Lib Dem trans activists ‘hounded’ abuse victim'
(extract)
"Natalie Bird, 38, a mother of two who fled an abusive former partner, was accused of “dangerous transphobia” by transgender activists in the party. She had said that opening up safe spaces without proper safeguards to anyone who said that they were female could put women at risk.

She opposed segregating women’s refuges by chosen gender instead of biological sex, and said that it was not fair to make female victims of domestic violence, abuse and rape share services with people with “functioning” male anatomy.

After being allegedly bullied on social media by party activists, Ms Bird was brought before a disciplinary hearing to face a complaint in the name of Zoe O’Connell, on behalf of the LGBT+ Liberal Democrats. The correspondence says that Ms Bird had “expressed troublesome views”.

The hearing found no evidence to support the complaint of transphobia, but Ms Bird lost her position as chairwoman of the Radical Association, made up of party members, following a vote of no confidence. This cost her her role as a judge of the Ashdown Prize for Radical Thought; an ironic move, Ms Bird said, given that the prize’s aim was to reward “big, bold, radical” solutions to society’s most “daunting problems . . . no one has the courage to argue for” (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lib-dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-b6dx39tv3

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown