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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

5/2/15 - Government Response to Petition Review rules that allow male prisoners who identify as female in women's prisons

44 replies

Didactylos · 05/02/2019 05:41

Government responded:

The safety of all prisoners is the Government’s paramount concern. A revised policy framework is in development and we are consulting with stakeholders to understand relevant concerns.

The Government is committed to treating all those in its care with decency, fairness and respect, and the assessment and management of risk is of paramount importance in protecting the public, including those in the care of our prisons.

In 2016, the Ministry of Justice conducted a policy review to ensure that the care and management of transgender offenders was fit for purpose and that it balanced the needs of individuals and the responsibility to safeguard the wellbeing of all prisoners. As part of the review’s dialogue exercise, a questionnaire was circulated to stakeholders through a number of routes, including an established umbrella body with over 600 members in the voluntary sector, including specialist organisations working in women’s prisons and with female offenders. This questionnaire asked what safety issues needed to be considered in women’s prisons when a transgender woman (male-to-female) was being considered for transfer. There were 78 responses to the questionnaire overall, and 19 responses to the question about managing risk in women’s prisons. As well as the questionnaire, written submissions were also invited, although none were received specifically from organisations representing women.

In 2018 a review began into the instruction that had been issued by HM Prison and Probation Service in 2016 (PSI17/2016). This was to incorporate the learning from its first two years in operation. As part of this process, the Ministry of Justice and HM Prison and Probation Service will again be engaging with relevant organisations that have expertise providing services to women.

The new policy framework will ensure that all known risks – both towards or presented by a transgender person in prison – are taken into account. It will factor in risks to all prisoners, especially those in the women’s estate, where many women will have been the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse and may continue to be exceptionally vulnerable.

The Ministry of Justice recognises that the management of transgender offenders is often a complex and sensitive issue, and it continues to welcome all perspectives in the development in an area of policy that is expected to continue to evolve.

Ministry of Justice.

Appears a bland ' We are listening to your concerns' type response but good that they acknowlege that no responses were recieved in the last consultation from groups representing specifically women (there seems to be a theme with many organizations that they never seem to seek these opinions or consider that female perspectives are important)
still

OP posts:
GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 07:01

I was just about to tag on to my other thread that talking about responses I just got one re the petition.

Shocking that yet again when deciding on putting feelings of y chromosome people ahead of the most vulnerable women in society a huge chunk of which have suffered horrifically at the hands of men, not one organisation that dealt specifically with women was consulted or listened to.

How do these groups whi are often self funded and unknown in wider society compete with the likes of stonewall etc

Balancing risks my arse. Hurty feelings trump safety every time. We know this

Karwomannghia · 05/02/2019 07:06

As well as not consulting women’s groups there were only 19 responses to one of the questions!

GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 07:10

I found that part worrying . No one wants answer it do they. Because now the police show up if you don't follow the rules.

Any idiot would know what happens when you put a penis haver in with a load of vaginas .

dragoning · 05/02/2019 07:12

There were 78 responses to the questionnaire overall, and 19 responses to the question about managing risk in women’s prisons.

Why so few responses?

As well as the questionnaire, written submissions were also invited, although none were received specifically from organisations representing women.

Again, why? Poor advertising of the consultation? Or was the potato to hot for organisations to respond without fear of being targeted for transphobia?

AnyOldPrion · 05/02/2019 07:16

”an established umbrella body with over 600 members in the voluntary sector, including specialist organisations working in women’s prisons and with female offenders.”

Names of these organisations and in what capacity they work with female offenders would be useful information. If these are, for example, prison visitors, many of them will have little on-the-ground experience. Were female prison officers consulted? Were female prisoners consulted?

I bet if they sent the questionnaire to all female prison officers, they’d get more than nineteen responses.

GoGoJo · 05/02/2019 07:20

Can we Foi the distribution and response list?

GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 07:24

I bet if they sent the questionnaire to all female prison officers, they’d get more than nineteen responses

Why would they do that. No one wants to face reality. They lose their Job's get doxxed online and stalked ....

Even the police can't seek to realise that if there really was no problem with any of it then their services wouldn't he required to shut everyone up and get them banned on Twitter

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 05/02/2019 07:32

The government and prison services know why men and women are separated in prison. Why do they suddenly pretend not to know when writing the guidelines?

Why is it a shock to them when male people attack female people in prison when that is a huge factor for separate estates in the first place?

The government and prison services know that a large percentage of female inmates have been subjected to male violence in the past. What impact do they think this has on the women in prison?

They are the ones with the experience and power to stop this happening in the first place.

Floisme · 05/02/2019 07:33

And it looks like they asked one question about managing the risk in women's prisons. In a questionnaire specifically about transgender offenders. One question. I would love to know how many questions there were and what the others were about.

adultFemaleElf · 05/02/2019 07:39

“As well as the questionnaire, written submissions were also invited, although none were received specifically from organisations representing women.”

Is it just me or is there a subtle (or not even so subtle) victim blaming vibe to this
statement.

As per a PP why didn’t the government engage their brains when considering the risks to women, they know why prisons are sex segregated.

Gametedescrition · 05/02/2019 07:44

I always find the term ‘stakeholders’ very difficult. It fudges who they are actually asking.

LizzieSiddal · 05/02/2019 07:54

I just had the email and my first thoughts ..

Which were the women’s organisations asked to complete the questionnaire and why didn’t they feel able to respond?
Also more importantly, re the fact no women’s organisations responded, why didn’t this set of a big question mark and why didn’t they go back and specifically get women’s groups on board? Instead they just threw women under a bus!

andyoldlabour · 05/02/2019 08:07

My wife and I both signed the petition shortly after it started, and when I received the email yesterday, I was shocked to see that there were only ten thousand plus signatures, I expected far more.

GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 08:14

Is it just me or is there a subtle (or not even so subtle) victim blaming vibe to this
statement

Not just you....

I find it incredibly unlikely that any women's organisation that knew about this would not respond or be ok with what happened.

Seems awfully convenient doesn't it.

The public, everyone are being deliberately kept in the dark...

Or fed the usual sob stories of children slicing themselves up or killing themselves when the reality is dangerous men are taking full advantage to gain access to women.

FusionChefGeoff · 05/02/2019 08:19

The new policy framework will ensure that all known risks – both towards or presented by a transgender person

  • and the risk that a non transgender male may attempt to present as such to gain access to female prisoners -

Are taken into account.

Would make me much happier.

terryleather · 05/02/2019 08:20

As per a PP why didn’t the government engage their brains when considering the risks to women, they know why prisons are sex segregated.

It should be as simple as this.

There should be absolutely no question about males being moved to the female estate, it shouldn't even be a consideration.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 05/02/2019 08:27

It's beyond poor. The focus of the women's estate must be the interests of its female prisoners. Making women's prisons mixed-sex is an abomination. It is a horrendously cruel extra punishment for the women.

2ndWaveFeminist · 05/02/2019 08:31

I think putting a foi request in to find out what ques were asked nad who was asked would be a good next step. I wonder would a women's place do it?

JackyHolyoake · 05/02/2019 08:45

Why is government even considering this as an issue of "managing risk in women's prisons"? Why is it not considered as an issue of "managing risk in men's prisons"?

We need to stop government thinking in terms of "case-by-case"? There is no case ever to be made for putting any man in a women's prison. Women's prisons are already mixed sex in some instances.

It is beyond belief that any government can consider this. Govt is actively promoting transgenderism, encouraging the increase in this population and then foisting it on women when problems arise.

LizzieSiddal · 05/02/2019 08:58

I think putting a foi request in to find out what ques were asked nad who was asked would be a good next step. I wonder would a women's place do it?

I agree, I’d love to know who was actually approached. Plus how was this consultation publicised?

OldCrone · 05/02/2019 08:59

Why is government even considering this as an issue of "managing risk in women's prisons"? Why is it not considered as an issue of "managing risk in men's prisons"?

Good point. Why would they be considering moving men to women's prisons in the first place? Why not just make sure male prisoners are safe in men's prisons. However they present.

Bowlofbabelfish · 05/02/2019 08:59

This questionnaire asked what safety issues needed to be considered in women’s prisons when a transgender woman (male-to-female) was being considered for transfer.

So it was a foregone conclusion from the start. No one asking should we do this, only how do we do it.

GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 09:05

Because it's a good way of maintaining the notion that women are responsible for what happens to them.

And they are responsible for anything bad that happens to men even at the hands if other men.

When they get beaten up in.prison they get to blame women for not being inclusive enough

Better option than having to blame themselves

GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 09:10

And prisons are like lesbianism aren't they?

Men have always wanted in due to their porno fantasies of what it would be like.

I mean how much man on man action was there in prison break. Now look at bad girls and OITNB.

LangCleg · 05/02/2019 09:10

Why is government even considering this as an issue of "managing risk in women's prisons"? Why is it not considered as an issue of "managing risk in men's prisons"?

This!

Also agree some not so subtle victim blaming going on there.

Let's have a new - and public - consultation, government. You can see how women actually feel about it then.