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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

5/2/15 - Government Response to Petition Review rules that allow male prisoners who identify as female in women's prisons

44 replies

Didactylos · 05/02/2019 05:41

Government responded:

The safety of all prisoners is the Government’s paramount concern. A revised policy framework is in development and we are consulting with stakeholders to understand relevant concerns.

The Government is committed to treating all those in its care with decency, fairness and respect, and the assessment and management of risk is of paramount importance in protecting the public, including those in the care of our prisons.

In 2016, the Ministry of Justice conducted a policy review to ensure that the care and management of transgender offenders was fit for purpose and that it balanced the needs of individuals and the responsibility to safeguard the wellbeing of all prisoners. As part of the review’s dialogue exercise, a questionnaire was circulated to stakeholders through a number of routes, including an established umbrella body with over 600 members in the voluntary sector, including specialist organisations working in women’s prisons and with female offenders. This questionnaire asked what safety issues needed to be considered in women’s prisons when a transgender woman (male-to-female) was being considered for transfer. There were 78 responses to the questionnaire overall, and 19 responses to the question about managing risk in women’s prisons. As well as the questionnaire, written submissions were also invited, although none were received specifically from organisations representing women.

In 2018 a review began into the instruction that had been issued by HM Prison and Probation Service in 2016 (PSI17/2016). This was to incorporate the learning from its first two years in operation. As part of this process, the Ministry of Justice and HM Prison and Probation Service will again be engaging with relevant organisations that have expertise providing services to women.

The new policy framework will ensure that all known risks – both towards or presented by a transgender person in prison – are taken into account. It will factor in risks to all prisoners, especially those in the women’s estate, where many women will have been the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse and may continue to be exceptionally vulnerable.

The Ministry of Justice recognises that the management of transgender offenders is often a complex and sensitive issue, and it continues to welcome all perspectives in the development in an area of policy that is expected to continue to evolve.

Ministry of Justice.

Appears a bland ' We are listening to your concerns' type response but good that they acknowlege that no responses were recieved in the last consultation from groups representing specifically women (there seems to be a theme with many organizations that they never seem to seek these opinions or consider that female perspectives are important)
still

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 05/02/2019 09:13

And of course these are not women in a position of being able to organise and mount a legal challenge or sue for injury.

What’s needed is will and a fighting fund to get any woman who has been assaulted as a result of this legal representation. A few huge payouts would help matters.

ProfessoressWoland · 05/02/2019 09:28

Why is government even considering this as an issue of "managing risk in women's prisons"? Why is it not considered as an issue of "managing risk in men's prisons"?

Exactly. The Karen Whites will continue to be placed in women's prisons - why?
Who/what law says male prisoners have the right to choose which estate they go to?

Trousering · 05/02/2019 09:37

I wonder if it's this organisation that they consulted.

www.edf.org.uk

They are working on the project hoping to completely abolish and legal sex protection.

Davros · 05/02/2019 09:37

Why is government even considering this as an issue of "managing risk in women's prisons"? Why is it not considered as an issue of "managing risk in men's prisons"?
I too totally agree with this. I got the email about the petition this morning and came straight here to read the reactions of wise MNers

Badstyley · 05/02/2019 10:21

I haven’t even received the email, and I definitely signed, and verified, the petition, when it was first launched.

GerryblewuptheER · 05/02/2019 10:22

Check your spam folder that's where mine was

Popchyk · 05/02/2019 10:30

And how are they defining "transgender"?

In 2016 most respondents to the questionnaire would assume that it meant someone who has had their penis chopped off.

In 2019, we're not in Kansas any more.

And "As part of this process, the Ministry of Justice and HM Prison and Probation Service will again be engaging with relevant organisations that have expertise providing services to women".

So these organisations will probably be the likes of Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, Fawcett Society, Amnesty, all of whom are adamant that men are women.

HumberElla · 05/02/2019 10:31

written submissions were also invited, although none were received specifically from organisations representing women

The way this is very carefully worded is interesting. It does not say that written submissions were ever invited from any organisations representing women. The fact that none were recieved wouldn’t be surprising in that case would it?

We all know the gov’s track record with consulting women re trans related issues.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 05/02/2019 12:28

Have just read my email!

In respect of the established umbrella body with over 600 members in the voluntary sector, including specialist organisations working in women’s prisons and with female offenders. There are plenty of umbrella bodies who represent like-minded organisations, I fail to see how asking for responses within an echo chamber is genuine consultation.

Let's be honest If women's groups didn't specifically respond to the "dialogue exercise" it's because they didn't know about it, not because they are apathetic.

To paraphrase a different campaign You can't run a consultation about women, without women. The adult Human Female variety.

WunderBlah · 05/02/2019 14:06

Surely this is a simple breach of the equality act and needs some kind of class action from all women prisoners to have sex segregation enforced? Any no win no fee legal firms willing to take this on?

It has been confirmed in Scotland that women's groups will not be given government funding unless they show support for transgender ideology. You need the same confirmation UK wide because that is what is happening here, the groups who should protect sex aren't doing so.

I too am surprised at the low number of signatories and think the petition needs publicity.

Mumfun · 05/02/2019 14:08

I thought it was completely unsatisfactory. How will women be protected in the future from predatory penised transwomen?

I would love one of the womens organisations to respond and push the government to included their feedback in the development of the policy and able to ask for changes in it. Totally unsatisfactory otherwise

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 05/02/2019 15:06

What Wunder said. Somehow, legal action needs to happen, I think it's the only thing that will make a difference.

WunderBlah · 05/02/2019 15:13

It needs to be big and noisy. Everyone I know heard the Karen White story and objected strongly, as many need to get behind the petititon to get it heard in parliament and that means as much publicity.

The women who got universal credit reconsidered in court got press attention. maybe a legal challenge for this would too?

If any press are reading you could add petition links into every relevant story.

It has to become more uncomfortable to go along with this than it is to ensure single sex space for the law to be observed. That will take noise, persistent noise and publicity.

How many more women are to be harmed by this lax equality act avoidance before the powers that be act?

Bowlofbabelfish · 05/02/2019 18:37

The problem is that the women who it affects are in no position to start legal action

I would love to see someone take this on

Davros · 05/02/2019 18:52

Where does the Women's Equality Party stand on this I wonder?

BreakWindandFire · 05/02/2019 19:58

I found out something fascinating today.

You are all probably aware that if you are the victim of a serious crime - such as sexual assault or rape - you are entitled to compensation from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority.

Except if you are in prison. Then by dint of that you are excluded from the scheme.

[It's Annex D of the CICA rules laid down in 2012 if anyone is interested]

So all those women whom 'Karen White' abused, are not entitled to redress. Despite the fact that the reason why they were abused was that the State locked them up with a male sex offender.

I really do wonder if the Prison Service was happy to experiment with placing a violent male in a female prison because they were fully aware that they couldn't be held accountable and that the worst that could happen was a bit of negative publicity.

These women were just lab rats to them weren't they?

R0wantrees · 05/02/2019 20:28

It will factor in risks to all prisoners, especially those in the women’s estate, where many women will have been the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse and may continue to be exceptionally vulnerable.

This is significant since it seems the impact on women and girls of 'trans-inclusive' policies which enable male transpeople into single-sex spaces, services etc hasn't been made an explicit consideration.

DangermousesSidekick · 05/02/2019 20:50

It's that phrase, 'consulted with stakeholders'.

They always consult with stakeholders. Women are not considered stakeholders, just stakes to be held.

Bluestitch · 05/02/2019 21:06

David TC Davies finally got to ask his question about this today.

www.facebook.com/2030282720523995/posts/2332189590333305/

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