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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Appointing yourself to decide how people discuss inequality

176 replies

lisamuggeridge · 02/02/2019 16:28

So with austerity, there was political consensus, rule of law was undermined for women and there wasnt a peep. In that time I also learned that in the UK very posh people, some of the most privileged eole in the country., have been 'identifying as feminist' or the left and thought that meant they were the peole who decided if anyone was allowed to discuss it. So quite a lot of people are dead and we still didnt discuss it. But there was a movement about those systems, and only a coule of months after the GRA deadline we appear to be having the same conversatoin.

Can someone explain how you qualify to be in this central authority who decides how people can discuss inequality and powerlessness? COs am quite sure it makes no sense for the entry to that to be an elite university, and being part of hte social network around the left.

Is there a way to bypass this cos I havent found it, and have never had any confirmation that this is an officially recognised layer in our democracy. So confused. I hd heard something about women standing u and being heard but here we are again..

The implications of feminism as a gatekeeper, which is what we are discussing, a gatekeeper to women discussing inequality are profound, when that gatekeeper is almost uniformly extremely privileged there would seem to be issues here about power we are not discussing when we ask how far Posie Parker should be wedged under buses.

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BlindYeo · 03/02/2019 00:46

I've been on this board for years woman. What I see here is shutting down of someone else and classism. Which is extremely ironic given the thread title.

lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:03

''I've been on this board for years woman. What I see here is shutting down of someone else and classism. Which is extremely ironic given the thread title''

Useful in its predictability when you are discussing this I think. Like a real time demonstration.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 01:05

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:07

Its difficult with a movement as broad as this to not start playing person vs person- so if we say trade unions, labour movement, labour party, its associated media, are an elite culture who are an established part of elite political machinery, with self id movement also hihlighting law and academia as being encompassed- so yes. Elite women with existing positions within that machinery, who reproduce that political identity around them. And would perceive discussion of how consensus was upheld on austerity as an insult to their identity because during the period their political identity may have een opposing it. So acknowledging there was consensus would undermine that. Id rather not turn it into a rubber neck for names thread if at all possible. Where I discuss names, am only ever doing so to illustrate systems.

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:08

That was a reply to fallingirl

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Ineedacupofteadesperately · 03/02/2019 01:13

Lisa Thanks for starting this thread, I see what you describe and I don't like it. And as for what women can do, not a lot, try and organise outside of the 'feminism' banner I suppose, with no political home or help from those more powerful with more resources. But it's almost impossible to get something started like that if you're trying to make ends meet and looking after kids.

I think it is extraordinary to see gender critical academics join in with the ‘distancing’ from Posie. Naive of me I suppose, but it is short sighted and narrow minded ofthem to go straight for the ‘distancing’ reaction. Agreed on this point too but also I don't think it was just 'distancing' they tried to direct the narrative against her and as far as I could see twisted the truth, Rosa Freedman (who I know has done other very good stuff, which I'm grateful for) said in tweets about Posie's actions ''What we do not need ever is more violence and discrimination against any person" which implies Posie was violent which she in no shape or form was and frankly she's tiny and would really struggle to be violent against anyone male-bodied.

But if there hadn't been a video? What would I believe?

BlindYeo · 03/02/2019 01:16

I'll accept your apologies for accusing me of being a sock puppet in the morning. Other posters will know my name perfectly well. The irony really is unreal.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 03/02/2019 01:16

Agreed with what Lisa said too about not making it about personalities, I'm only quoting Dr Freedman to illustrate the point I'm trying to make that the elite don't just distance they sort of actively discourage people outside their group too.

It's very disheartening. I've seen this with Labour women politicians too. Only engaging with stuff that fits their narrative

womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 01:20

I am unsure who the other ‘elite’ women referred to in Lisaks posts are, and what they have been up to. Are we talking about trade union women?

I think it's a version of women being "God's police" ie men's police. So they take up roles in organisations/ parties that profess to be there for the greater good. So those organisations become their family so to speak. Their income, advancement, their reputation and status rely on keeping those family relationships. So they have to tow the party line to keep in with the family.

Then say they see something untoward, something that says what is going on here is not good for all, something that requires they challenge the family mission statement. Thus they have a choice - either to be the whistleblower and more than likely be expelled from the family, their income, career, status. Or they turn a blind eye - either unconsciously or consciously.

Most choose the latter and then when accused of turning a blind eye by the victims - instead of being curious, they condemn the speaker.

QuietContraryMary · 03/02/2019 01:28

I don't think the welfare state is particularly relevant to the policing of what is acceptable 'feminist though' in the context of PP.

PP is, as noted, 'privileged', in that she has the means to do & say what she likes with no fear about job loss or whatever.

This 'privilege' (I use 'privilege' in scare quotes because 'privilege' is something that is frequently asserted when perhaps it isn't the main factor at work) is a factor of opportunity (she is comfortably off) but also choice (she chooses to put her head above the parapet).

In general terms certain points of view are risk free to hold in the 'corridors of power' (politics, media, education), and they include TWAW & related thought. That doesn't make holding 'non-BBC' opinions of itself 'stunning & brave' - there's nothing terribly interesting or novel about thinking that homosexuality is immoral, or whatever else. What it does mean is that opinion that contradicts an orthodoxy is dangerous if you express it to an audience that firmly believes that certain views are bigotry, and that bigotry is the worst possible sin to hold, and where your 'bigotry' is subject to policing via the same.

For example, a Muslim Labour councillor agreed with a Muslim mother that a primary school curriculum that teaches about LGBT was inappropriate. www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/muslim-councillor-probe-after-endorsing-15747253 Looking at the two parties here, the Muslim mother is subject to relatively little 'thought policing', in that she does not hold a position of power, and because her religion is a minority one, so her religious views are given a greater degree of leeway than if she were not a Muslim. The Muslim councillor shares her religion, and had initially shared her viewpoint, but he was 'thought policed' by his political party, which said that his views were contrary to those of the Labour party, though they are plainly uncontroversial for those of his religion.

As far as PP goes, she is afforded less leeway because of 'privilege': it is seen that she is white & comfortably off, and as such her thoughts are ruthlessly policed when they contravene any aspect of conventional liberal opinion in any way.

As to WHY this is so, it comes back to bigotry being the worst possible sin for the liberal establishment, but also in some way to a desire to construct a simple victim/oppressor narrative. Transwomen are often an 'othered' group: if we look at the kathoey of Thailand, they are not the ruling structure, nor are the transwomen of Brazil, India, etc. So the lazy victim/oppressor narrative says that transwomen are a victim group and so anyone who opposes them is an oppressor.

This narrative persists because it is convenient - people aren't interested in pursuing the nuance of argument, they just want a simple solution. So when you have PP who is white, fairly wealthy, etc., well she's the perfect villain isn't she.

As for who her victims are, well we could perceive the likes of Jane Fae, Munroe Bergdorf, India Willoughby etc. as very middle class and privileged - and of course they are, but that's not the dominant narrative, and it's certainly not an easy sell. It's much easier to sell 'transwomen are women suffering in the 'wrong body' facing bigotry from nasty rich, white oppressors like Posie' than it is to deconstruct that narrative and look for the nuance. I mean really who wants to do that? No doubt transwomen suffer discrimination, and for the the liberal well-meaning establishment and their adherents, that's sufficient to come up with the simplistic conclusion that works well enough: for anyone who isn't either some sort of right-wing bigot, or a rare person who has time in their life to look into this in lots of detail (and who does, honestly).

Hence we have PP as the rich white oppressor and the TW as the victim group. And of course because PP is of that class and she's not embarrassed about her opinions then she will be written off extremely quickly as Donald Trump/Nigel Farage. The same fate would not occur to the Muslim mother I mentioned earlier because she's not of the dominant class.

Any power that Posie possess through money is of course nothing compared to the greater physical strength of a typical transwoman compared to her, but that's not really the issue here - Rupert Murdoch might, at 87, be physically weaker than the average woman, but he has much more power.

So Posie's arguments about the real threat to women posed by male-bodied individuals are problematic in that sense also, because they are more likely to be seen as attempts to use her obvious power to further oppress an out group (TW) than they are to be seen as a legitimate attempt to protect women & girls.

Of course the problem is that while PP has some power to stand up and make a bit of noise, it's not real power that actually gets things done. If you own a tobacco company that sells $10 billion of tobacco that's real hard power. Posie's power is simply the power to open her mouth - it's not the power to be listened to and respected.

(And let's not lose sight of the fact that her self identity as a 'wife' has implications: the Quran (4:34) states "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women)", and that's hardly a view specific to Islam, 1 Corinthians 14:34 holds "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

The connotations of 'wife' are as chattel, maintained by the husband, without independent thought.

And alternative are scarcely better - the dreaded 'single mother' is 'paid for by my taxes', and again has no right to hold any opinions as she 'is not paying'.)

lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:28

I think it must be tremendously difficult if not completely impossible and not within the normal human psyche to actually be able to properly reflect on the power you are exercising, if it is over a nation and through media nobody had to. But now they have to mi with us its all out in social relations on twitter, where we pretend its person vs person. What this movement has done has shown us how we fit together in a system and I think its important how we handle that. I think fwiw it must be tremendously difficult to have believed in a period of stability yoour work was feminist or achieving somethig, and all of a sudden to be faced with people who embody and evidence that that was not true and it must e doubly difficult to reflect if you dont realis ethe seriousness of the situation. I dont think it would have been possile or necessary really before the media landscape changed and i think twitter is the boil on the arse of dying media where that happened.

I know what happened in the last eight years was sject to consensus, ie it was democratically decided and supported. And I can see clearly how that becomes a problem for people whose identity was about opposing something to have someone come along and say I need to talk about the fact that everyone agreed and played a part including you. Also I wouldntwant to go up against Labours misogynistic culture and many of he women in self id movement have had to do that and in doing so have again encoutered people who before would have been a threat to their political identity and culture. FWIW I think that must be tremendously difficult and I dont think that the reason systems reproduce unless you really reflect on power dynamics and identity, is that only bad people fail to do this. Thats probaly a lot of words not making much sense, which is a sign I should go to bed.

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:31

''Also I wouldntwant to go up against Labours misogynistic culture'' I say I wouldnt want to. Its actually been forced upon me for eight years thaks to twitter. Which am glad am out of.

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QuietContraryMary · 03/02/2019 01:31

sorry I should say 'feminist thought', not 'feminist though' in my previous post.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 01:33

Can feminism be feminism if it is directly about preventing women asserting and challenging power dynamics if those women dont meet the requirements of that elite gatekeeper?

Refer to my previous comment for context re gatekeeping - you're either a member of the family or you're not. Those family relationships come at a high price but most don't see that - they see income, career, status, belonging. Many just get so used to the trappings of being a family member that it doesn't get thought about - they keep on getting invited really interesting events/networking dos where they meet interesting people and they think they are climbing the social ladder.

They don't even realise how comprised they are.

And it takes a brave woman to turn her back on those when it's working in her favour.

The problem comes when one challenges the family/abuse/status quo - when one exposes the emperor's nakedness, one gets forcibly ejected and character smeared. As a whistleblower, one finds out that life isn't fair or just and really few give a fuck.

So I would say how do the women whistleblowers on men's abuse of power at all levels get a voice themselves and not just through a few gatekeepers of "good" women who don't have the perspective nor lived experience? When does advocate become gatekeeper? Why don't advocates let the whistleblowers speak for themselves plus make themselves redundant over time by helping to organise those whistleblowers to take over - a kind of succession planning. But the advocates become the blockers - probably unintentionally

womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 01:40

Do men have any such gatekeeper to bypass if they wish to assert power?

In my observation mostly no - even when a relative outsider through family background - eg working class, provided they tow the line - either get a degree/trade - they are then advanced ahead of women. Men look after men - all the stats show that - they don't recognise or value women - eg venture capital in startups - 96% goes to men led ventures, even though women led ones perform significantly better. Call it what you will - the figures don't lie - women are non-men and hence not to be trusted with money.

But men don't tend to speak out against other men provided they are looked after - they are pack animals - and the patriarchy and other males look after them very well - so it's a win-win - for men

lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:46

Men look after men - all the stats show that - they don't recognise or value women - eg venture capital in startups - 96% goes to men led ventures, even though women led ones perform significantly better. Call it what you will - the figures don't lie - women are non-men and hence not to be trusted with money.

Ive been through the angel investor funding process. Er. Less said best left.

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 01:50

''When does advocate become gatekeeper? ''''

This is a question we are suposed to be legally bound to ask, we are supposed to reflect on this, have laws, we have a theory base around it(intersectionality provides basis of that). The question, much like the awareness of safeguarding and how it links to equality law and the rest of our systems, seems to be missing at an elite level, particularly in institutions shaped around nothing more than getting media approval in a media landscape that no longer exists. Which we are part of now. so they cant maintain that separation and through their response to it online they have shown power relations there and now through this movement. But this is clearly not sustainable and makes this process we are in quiet important to my mind. Its quite important to ask by what authority and on behalf of who, Posie is being denounced. And how is that going to be exercised when the Guardian goes under and wht is the cost of it being exercised now?

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pomobrokemypogo · 03/02/2019 02:10

I was going to respond with a post that I have taken time over and considered carefully, but then I read the more recent posts and decided that despite my falling very firmly into the camp of in crisis and disenfranchised and wanting to change that for myself and others, I am not going to take part in a thread where opposing posters are called slugs and accused of trolling and DARVO when they have simply challenged an assertion in polite language and with statistics, and in so doing acting exactly as BlindYeo says and the OP complains of, exerting (leftist) moral superiority and personally attacking others in order to control who can take part in the discussion. The irony indeed.

Lisa and WFKAW in the spirit of the OP, I will say that I think you were out of order and hypocritical. This board is a resource, a place of power, an opportunity to shape discussions that reach a wide audience. It can be mis-used; the (privilege?) opportunity and ability to post and be heard that others lack can go unrecognised and be abused.

MN FWR can be an extraordinary place of the most fantastic, educated and insightful, thoughtful, informed reasoning.

And just sometimes it is...... very much not.

I think a good answer as to who controls the narrative, the agenda, the power, the platform is that quite often it is those who are prepared to be the nastiest and most cut throat.

lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 02:13

''Lisa and WFKAW in the spirit of the OP, I will say that I think you were out of order and hypocritical.''

How so?

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 02:18

''This board is a resource, a place of power, an opportunity to shape discussions that reach a wide audience. It can be mis-used; the (privilege?) opportunity and ability to post and be heard that others lack can go unrecognised and be abused.''

I am incredibly mindful of that, am also mindful that even if I am constantly under attack, I am also heard and listened to by people where that is something you should be mindful of and I dont do nasty to get ahead but I cant pretend that what happens within a short time of me posting, is not happening for the sake of civility and I empoy strategies not to be derailed or upset by it and occasionally to use it to demonstrate. This is in the absence of me being able to stop it. I am actually a person and outside that privilege of knowing that am listened to by certain people, in all other respects I am precariou, physically frail and extremely vulnerable so I cant participate in either soical media politics or movement based politics, ubt nor will I pretend that that doesnt happen as part of the background noise I have to live every time I am onlien
'

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 02:20

So if you dont mind, I dont accept that I have behaved hypocritically on this thread or that I have abused power dynamics y expressing what was expressed here. I wont be apologising that you felt that way or pretending its valid. Its only valid if you squint and try not to see any context. Or hats happening in front of you.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 02:56

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lisamuggeridge · 03/02/2019 03:01

''They don't even realise how comprised they are.

And it takes a brave woman to turn her back on those when it's working in her favour.'''

I think these two things are often true at the same time and one doesnt make the other less true or vice versa and thats really difficult. I thinkpossibly beyond some people for perfectly understandale reasons, but the question then is how you handle that and what you reveal about power dynamics you perceive in the way you handle it.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 03:03

And the assertions that I am here to communicate to a larger audience and shape discussions is again 😂😂- I am on a chat room voicing my opinion- not the royal opera house or floor of HOC - assuming others are here for the same reason as you may be or projecting that onto others is 🥴 and again reminds me of men accusing women of having power over them and blaming them for being rejected by women.

I am not here for grandstanding but curious that assertion is made :p

womanformallyknownaswoman · 03/02/2019 03:19

I have done possible solutions Lisa and it’s a bit complicated to convey simply in text. In essence, Every system should be user focused with checks and balances in place to ensure no abuse of power or where it is at play, is acknowledged and reasonable adjustment made for.

For example with the Posie/Venice/Julia criticism from some - I imagine those criticising see real risk of loss and perhaps anger at not being included and not having the opportunity to input and shape initiatives. Some may feel resentment at wanting to do what they did but not being able to - for real fear of retribution by hostile forces and not having the capacity and support to fend them off.

Conversely whilst a good thing has been done by the trio, referencenand deferences to others engaged in the fight in different ways would not go amiss.

And all the time it would be great to give voice not to experts or advocates but survivors - where are the survivors? Who is consulting us/them? Where are the initiatives to ask them what they need rather than assuming that? Where are other perspectives from those who say hey I’m getting annihilated here on a daily basis and nothing any of you are doing or saying is changing that reality or even really turning and acknowledging that and I have no hope my/our material reality will change based on any action or policy I have seen