Abortion Bill

[Incredulosity]

Would you have supported this Bill going through?

Anyone who thinks this is in anyway ok seriously needs to have a look into the conscience.

Yes, I was aware that later term abortions stop the foetal heartbeat - it was actually a point brought up by a pro-abortion medic in discussion where she was being asked about what happens if a child is alive after a late term abortion, and she said it didn't happen because the heart is stopped before birth.

Tbh, I think this is one of those rather confused areas of law and ethics. The argument is made that a child is likely to die soon after birth, and there will be suffering involved so a late abortion is suggested where the child is euthanized before birth. But it's like that euthanasia is only acceptable if the child is still in utero, because once born it's a whole different scenario, and I think that's rather odd and inconsistent, but that's the conundrum with late term abortion specifically. Certainly for advocates of 'any time, any reason' in my view. What exactly changes through the birth can so that confers personhood on a child?

Wrt the more usual situation of late term abortion because of incompatibility with life, part of me sees the situation is different, but I still can't get past the disablist view that it's right to deem someone disposable on some level because they are disabled in any way.

Again, to reiterate, this is not a judgement on the women who face these decisions. I've a good friend who did and I hold her in very high esteem.

Certainly for advocates of 'any time, any reason' in my view. What exactly changes through the birth can so that confers personhood on a child?

I've seen the argument that the foetus is not a person (taken to extremes - calling it a parasite) as it cannot survive without the mother's body. Clearly post 24 weeks premature bodies do survive.

It seems to me that there is a very clear distinction between a 12 week foetus and a 24 week foetus. Majority opinion in the UK would agree. It may be an illogical distinction, since the 12 week foetus will if left alone more than likely be born, but it's a compromise. It permits the least worst option to allow abortion. Banning abortion is the worst option.

I think strident calls to allow abortion to term for no reason do nothing to help women achieve abortion rights.

MargueritaPink

I completely agree..I think the distinction is based on instinct..when a woman is later stage pregnant and has a swollen belly, we all know what is in there.

Claiming that unless the state is willing to provide a highly skilled person to perform a procedure the majority of society considers morally outrageous, leaves you without "autonomy" is absurdity.

Any time for any reason.
Whilst I would never want to see a woman asking for an abortion during labour, it seems pretty obvious that this is only a theoretical question used to create restrictions for women. It would never actually happen.

'There is never a need to perform a late term abortion to benefit the health of the mother.'

Oops pressed post too soon

What about that woman in Ireland

Who died

That was a fairly negative effect on her health.

Carol, are you trying to call 20-24 week abortions "late term", which is ludicrous, or 9 month abortions late term, which is the apparent ridiculous non-issue pushed into discussion in the video? Because everywhere I see conservatives talking about the mythical woman seeking an abortion the day before delivery for no good reason. I have little opinion on a 20 week abortion which is not even in the same ball park.

I find the statement that there is NEVER a need to be impossibly definite.

At some point in all of time it must be the case that a human woman has needed an abortion to save her life,at a late stage of pregnancy.

To state this has never and could never be its very (too) bold and I therefore am not inclined to give too much credibility to other claims from that direction.

Never say never, as they say.

@Voiceofreason - exactly. They keep whining about women wanting an abortion during labor. I'm sure some women during labor might WISH they'd had one, haha, but not really the same thing.

Then they try to conflate it with abortion rights during the early second trimester, which is their segue into just outlawing it altogether.

I don't disagree that this an emotional play by the pro life questioner, and as such I'm not sure it is helpful to anyone.

But the purpose of this kind of questioning of the legislative process is to properly interrogate a law to see what all the implications are. It's all very well saying "But that would never happen." If that's the case, why would it need to be possible? And if it would need to be possible, then own it, just as the woman in the video did.

This is really important ethical stuff, it needs to be fully and unflinchingly explored.

Realizing that all pregnancies can end in maternal mortality -- at what point precisely does a woman lose her right to decide whether or not to risk her life for another's?

I think anything that gives women more choice over their body is great. I am fully pro-choice, meaning I support a woman's right to an abortion at any stage for any reason. Do I feel especially comfortable at the thought of a very late term baby being aborted? No. Is it any of my fucking business? No again. People need to keep their beaks out of other women's wombs

BTW OP if you see infanticide please call the please (abortion is not infanticide FYI)

*police not please

this is why many women look on with incredulity at the antics of feminists

WHAT!!

You mean not everyone loves me ...oh wait no, I don't actually give a shit

I am fully pro-choice, meaning I support a woman's right to an abortion at any stage for any reason. Do I feel especially comfortable at the thought of a very late term baby being aborted? No. Is it any of my fucking business? No again. People need to keep their beaks out of other women's wombs

I read statements like this and always imagine a little glow of self- righteousness around the poster.

Floral is correct. No one legislates on the basis of "this is such an extreme and unlikely scenario it will never happen but we're going to make it possible- even although it will never happen".

Abortion to term for no reason will never be acceptable to the vast majority of people- including women. In fact in the UK more women than men think 24 weeks is too long. UK law permits abortion after that in exceptional circumstances so here at least this hyperbolic comment does not apply Realizing that all pregnancies can end in maternal mortality -- at what point precisely does a woman lose her right to decide whether or not to risk her life for another's?^

In countries where abortion rights are non-existent or severely restricted do you (pro full term abortion for no reason you) think your stance does any good whatsoever or merely hardens opposition?

It's not so much not loving feminists but looking on with incredulity at how divorced from reality some feminists are to the point that they cannot see such a hardline stance damages the chances of achieving abortion rights.

oh wait no, I don't actually give a shit

It's odd that someone who claims an interest in the progression of women cares not what other women think of them.

One of the things I really like about the UK is how considered our laws usually are. Abortion is a good example, I think we get it just right here. The trouble with it is that any argument that is given by either side almost immediately fails the socratic method and so adopting one extreme (total ban) or the other ( to term for any reason) immediately positions you as an extremist and seriously out of whack with majority opinion. We don't want laws made by such people.

Realizing that all pregnancies can end in maternal mortality -- at what point precisely does a woman lose her right to decide whether or not to risk her life for another's?

This.

The issue is that doctors typically use ‘mental health’ as a loophole for elective abortions. The question is how severe the risk to her mental health has to be in order for the abortion to occur and what countermeasures would be provided to prevent abuse/will offending physicians be prosecuted?

It's odd that someone who claims an interest in the progression of women cares not what other women think of them.

No it isnt. A fundamental part of actual feminism is learning about female socialisation, and how its used both to hold us back, and as a stick to beat us with.
As an example, spend a few days on AIBU and look at how many women are uncomfortable about using 'no'. They've been taught not just that saying 'no' is rude, but thats its unacceptable to have boundaries.

Worrying about what other people think of us when we are doing nothing wrong is unhealthy.

Kathy Tran is an idiot who said she “misspoke” and she could possibly set back abortion rights by this. Her words are a perfect rejoinder for pro-lifers when we say (quite rightly) that no one gets a full-term abortion.

I’m so bloody annoyed at this

No it isnt. A fundamental part of actual feminism

I thought it was about listening to women, although I always knew which women, of course. The rest don't count and you shouldn't give a shit about their opinions ?

Anyway, that is OT, but agree this Kathy Tran has mobilised and given credence to those who seek abortion banned completely. It's a hornet's nest and I see no point in poking it, it's very dangerous.

No Elon, thats a straw man argument and a very nasty one.

No Elon, thats a straw man argument

Sure it is, whatever you say.

No it isnt. A fundamental part of actual feminism is learning about female socialisation, and how its used both to hold us back, and as a stick to beat us with

It has nothing to do with that. Adopting these hardline views is simply basking in your own ideological purity- no matter how extreme or unpalatable your views are to the vast majority of people. Or how much damage such extreme views do to the cause you are supposedly supporting. It is sheer nonsense to argue for abortion to term for no reason and say , but it will never happen.

Kathy Tran is an idiot who said she “misspoke” and she could possibly set back abortion rights by this. Her words are a perfect rejoinder for pro-lifers when we say (quite rightly) that no one gets a full-term abortion

Kathy Tran has mobilised and given credence to those who seek abortion banned completely. It's a hornet's nest and I see no point in poking it, it's very dangerous

Exactly.