The logic of non-binary/ gender-fluid

[TrashyTerf]

I am honestly not saying this to be goady. I am genuinely trying to understand this issue further. I tried asking on a transgender sub on Reddit, but I was instantly banned. If it is too offensive to be discussed here, then I do apologize and will ask for it to be removed.

My question is this:

How can non-binary and gender-fluid exist alongside transgender?

From what I understand, transgender people believe that they have the wrong brain for their body. This error happens in the womb. Fine.

Non-binary people believe that they have no gender. But then, does this mean that their brain is genderless? Is this also an error in the womb?

Gender-fluid people believe that their gender changes daily. Does this mean that their brain changes daily too?

For me, the logic falls apart when comparing these three things. I don't think they can logically exist together.

Can someone talk me through it?

Non-binary can be categorised into:
A) people fleeing gender/sex role stereotypes
B) people enforcing sex role stereotypes. Cf Pip Bunce.

Pip Bunce is a common or garden cross dresser with AGP overtones.

I really can't see gender fluidity as having any logical basis other than cross dressing arousal.

It doesn't come from the same place as women insisting they're non binary to stop being treated as lesser than ( as opposed to the attention seekers who claim non binary because they like doctor martins one day and florals the next).

Doesn’t stop bunce snaffling women’s awards though does it?

I am not surprised to see the many replies pointing out there is no logic to it, and the connection of non binary to the trans movement doesnt really make any sense.

I found it quite revealing on that video Fox and Owl did of a trans conference where they chanted their mantras 'Transwomen are women! Transmen are men! Non binary is valid!' because that last phrase seemed even more of an attempt to convince themselves than the first two. I suspect that's because the trans edifice is built on quite strict Genderism and non binary goes a long way to undermining that so is a harder sell in that movement.

But there is interesting psychology, despite the contradictions. Once you introduce an idea of a 'spectrum' that works by conflating sex and gender, it does make some internal sense to have people who fall in a sort of central position rather than either end of the spectrum.

Obviously, it's based on a simple category mistake - the mixing of bio sex and gendered personality means that people who are just really straightforward and not stereotypes think they can't actually be definitively either sex, which is demonstrable nonsense, but understandable on one level.

Then you do have the types who collect identities like pin badges and claim to be non binary because it tres interesting. See also: queer.

Genderfluid sort of operates the same way but seems less like an attempt to escape and much more attention seeking to me, tbh.

In agree floral. I also think it's quite interesting how many trans people go out of their way to validate non-binary.

To me, that absolutely smacks of legitimising part time cross dressing.

In fact, were I of a mind to give myself shite Tumblr labels, I could claim genderfluid quite easily, because even just in clothing choice, some days I wear men's collared shirts, neck ties and clump boots, and other days I enjoy full corseted Victorian regalia, purely dependent on my mood.

Datun, yes, I do think because of the trans umbrella being as big as the canopy of the stars, it's part of the strategy to suck it all in.

But I also think there is a difference between the really creepy types and the navel-gazing YouTube pseuds who like to do performance poetry with cream fairy lights behind them...

I am perplexed daily by the term non binary trans person.

I think it's all just smoke and mirrors so they can tantrum about something.

They bang on about their 'rights,' I'm very unclear what rights they don't have.

The 'right' to validation. However little credibility it has.

Validate what exactly? These kids watch too much America’s reality shows in my opinion. It’s like trying to argue philosophy with a parrot.

I wear doc martens with floral dresses. How I don't have an identity crisis everytime I leave the house I don't know.
Non binary is bullshit because literally everyone except barbie and gi joe is non binary. Wait...
Even barbie can drive and be a scientist now days so even she's non binary.
Gender is a binary. Great. Sex is not.

Jesus I used to wear ball gowns and dms when I were a lass (and had a suede head). Feh kids today eh?

Honestly? Non-binary is your common-or-garden first world problem: hyper-privileged twits identifying into oppression because it's the only thing mummy and daddy can't buy them.

I wonder if the OFAB non-binary people (possibly the OMABs too but I spend more time pondering the motivations of female people) are trying to get away from personal past trauma (or avoid the cultural trauma experienced by many women).

My son (18) is in his first year at uni and has a ‘transmasculine’ friend who told him, explicitly that they don’t really like trans people or trans politics, they ‘just didn’t want to grow up to be a woman’.
This female born person is attracted to men and thus self describes as gay - I can’t help but worry they’ve swapped an anticipated heartbreak for an impossible dream... it’s like they don’t dare to interact with men without wearing a ‘man’ disguise (and that they find gay men less intimidating than straight men).

Non-binary for young females maybe feels like a half way house, an attempt at avoiding a lived experience of womanhood but without having to walk amongst actual men?

Maybe I need to lurk www.reddit.com/r/detrans/ less, but I am really sad and scared for young women at present.

(That said, I did come across a FABULOUSLY flamboyant non-binary person via Instagram explore feed. Imagine a long haired Freddy Mercury in satin slacks and stilettos. I do feel sad that society now dictates that a man can’t wear a moustache AND heels and still be a man - we deffo seem to have regressed from the 70s/80s/90s. Anyway, I thought this person looked marvellous, far more striking than Travis Alaburger - wouldn’t want either of them in the women’s change in Topshop though 🤷‍♀️)

In my day - late 90s early 2000's - the chronically insecure naval gazers turned to astrology.
There wasn't as much internet then and much less porn, so one could spend many happy hours 'analysing' ones Neptune in Leo and what it all meant for your communication style or relationship with siblings or what job you might be suited to.
A much more balanced approach to self obsession, in hindsight.

Floral bunting you sound like one hell of a woman.

I just spent two weeks skippering a yacht around the Caribbean with my non sailing brother as a birthday treat for him. Apologies for the humble or otherwise bragging. The point is that it was commented on every day that the woman was the skipper. I qualified as a yacht skipper in 1983, it is a Fucking tragedy that this is still considered unusual for a woman so I kinda get the identify out of that Fucking prejudice but bejeezus, a woman can navigate and drop an anchor with tits, they don't get in the way.

Non-binary for young females maybe feels like a half way house, an attempt at avoiding a lived experience of womanhood but without having to walk amongst actual men?

www.teenvogue.com/story/9-things-people-get-wrong-about-being-non-binary

I personally don’t feel I was born in the wrong body; I feel I was assigned the wrong gender based on people’s misconceptions about my body. My non-binary identity isn’t the result of my brain chemistry; it’s a reflection of my disagreement with the whole system of gender.

and

Similarly, non-binary people don't always feel they were "born that way," Manduley adds. "For some people, their realization (or even discomfort with a binary assignment of man or woman) doesn't materialize until later in life," they explain. "For some, there's little to no distress, and just an internal acknowledgement that their gender is different and/or more complex than man or woman."

What I find frustrating about these people is that they can't see past the end of their own noses. Binary gender is harmful - but only for them because they're special and complex. So they must have a special individual opt-out and a new label to show that even though they have a female reproductive system, they're not like 'binary women'. They have more depth, and sparkles, and specialness.

Op, if you're genuinely not wanting to be goady then another board may have been more appropriate for your question. A lot of anti trans activities frequent the feminism board (and a lot of mn posters hide the feminism board because of the anti trans threads so the answers you get here are going to be quite one sided)

The answer to your question is that no two people are the same, gender, sexuality etc. Are all personal things so just because someone feels one way about their gender identity, it doesn't mean another person has to fit the criteria of another person's identity to define theirselves iyswim. Gender is a social construct, people will have different ways of defining their gender (eg, some days I dress in what could be considered masculine clothes, flannel shirt, jeans, converse. Other days I may wear a dress and lots of make up. For some, this would lead to them defining their selves as gender fluid as they do not strictly adhere to the ideals of one gender.)
Hope this helps

it doesn't mean another person has to fit the criteria of another person's identity to define theirselves

To have meaning there has to be some sort of consensus, or general understanding. I could identify myself as a communist but as I am against the state control of all means of production then I wouldn't fit the criteria, and others could legitimately call in to question my claim.

as they do not strictly adhere to the ideals of one gender

So much woke, so much progressive.

Words mean things.

Cat:

1. Felis Catus
2. "Dogs" which use a flap in the door
3. "Rabbits" which use a litter tray

It doesn't help at all Stadt because you've just described every body in the whole world. Everybody has aspects to their personality and moods beyond gender stereotypes.

:D :D :D

I think it’s all bs, I think non binary/gender neutral just means they claim to be whatever gender suits their agenda at any given point, eg they can pick and choose to their advantage.

the ideals of one gender

Aka sexist stereotypes. FFS. Can you not see how regressive this is?