What are you telling your children about sex and gender?

[irnbruforlife]

I am hearing how a lot of teenage children have been sold the gender identity ideology as legitimate truth from various sources be it school, social media etc. My dc are far younger, and whilst I don't have as much control as to what they learn at school, is it wrong to instil a rigid belief in them that humans cannot change sex? That trans ideology is like any other religion, some people believe in it and are entitled to believe in it, but (imo and I say this respectfully) they are wrong and if they push their beliefs too far it will cause discord/May be dangerous for other people in society.

I had a simple conversation with my 5 yr old neice last year (she's very inquisitive and instigated it)

Girls & women are females Girls grow up and become women. Women can have babies like your Mummy did. Not all women have babies like Auntie R0.

Boys and men are males (boys are children who are males, men are grown up males.) Men can't have babies.

People can't change sex so you and I and Mummy will always be female.

People can wear whatever colour they like. No I don't like pink as much as I like blue. Your Grandad likes wearing pink shirts.

Yes of course girls can be firefighters and boys can be nurses.

She was very happy with this conversation.
She wants to be a doctor and write novels.

I have an older nephew who has a diagnosis of ASD.
He is currently fixated by a female transperson who has been in the news described as 'a man who is pregnant.'

planespotting
If she didn't already have those ideas in her head, from other people and society at large, we wouldn't have been having the conversation in the first place!

I have not put gendered expectations in her head; I have highlighted the ridiculousness of them.

I watch peachyoghurt with my eldest (11 and 13) on YouTube. She comes across as funny and down to earth and straightforward and puts it all very clearly. A bit of swearing, but given the language on the school bus I’m not too worried about that. They like her and have become very GC in consequence.

Mine are young (nearly 8 and a baby) so I haven't discussed this much yet but I need to because we recently reconnected with DD's dad's family at his funeral and her cousin is a transman now so I need to figure out how to speak to DD about this.

We've talked about the differences between males and females and I did briefly touch upon some people wishing they were the other sex and trying to look that way but that people can't actually change sex but that was over a year ago so she probably doesn't even remember. (Came up when I was reading the bedtime stories for rebel girls and there was the transgirl story there)

I have said this before here but what I say to my non gender conforming neurodiverse DC is

“Gender is a social construct based on stereotypes that are harmful to women and men.
Being a girl who likes short hair and football does not make you a boy. Being a boy who likes dance and dolls does not make you a girl.
Like what you like, wear what you want, love who you love.
You cannot be born in the wrong body - you are perfect as you are.”

Our discussions here were triggered by Big Brother and then we watched Transformation Street. The teens felt really uncomfortable about the private surgery. My right on teens turned to me with the scales dropping from their eyes, “Mum this is really sad as they think all this surgery will make them happy but it won’t.”

@ReaganSomerset @deepwatersolo @RiverTam

Completely agree with your thoughts. I'm horrified at the gender stereotypes in DD's PSHE lesson on trans issues. Guess the whole trans ideology collapse without rigid ideas of who does what, bonkers.

If it was just about me I'd complain, go to the papers etc. in a heartbeat, DD would be absolutely mortified though. Thinking about how to get my point across without dropping her in it......

My DC are 5 and 8. Their cousin has been trans for as long as they can remember, although they have seen pictures of them as a little girl. I tell them "K really likes looking like a boy / man. We call them K because that's the name they like at the moment. But even though they look like a boy, and really like imagining that they are a boy, their body will always be female, like mine and yours."

The truth.

That your sex is biological and unchangeable. That gender is societal expectations imposed upon you based upon that sex.

She'd been told the opposite at school - that sex is what other people see you as and gender is "how you feel in your head".

I explained that how you feel; what you like; your clothes preferences; hobbies; interests; tastes are all down to personality and individual difference and fuck all (I didn't say fuck) to do with 'gender'.

I asked her if she felt like a girl? She said no. That she was a girl but she didn't know what being a girl felt like, she only knew what feeling like her felt like. But she is a girl because, well, she's a girl.

During the conversation, we made a list of 'typically' boy things and 'typically' girl things or what girls/boys are like. Then we went down it and she ticked the ones she likes/or is like. There was pretty even split between 'boy' things and 'girl' things.

She concluded that all this gender business is nonsense and people should just like what they like and wear what they like but people can't change sex.

I'm completely in agreement with you all about telling children the truth but what happens if children share that knowledge with others?

As it is now an unspeakable truth for so many people do your children get dragged to the headteachers office and accused of bigotry, transphobia or being a nazi? Or even worse, do they risk being ostracized, and bullied, by their wokier peers?

My dd 13 was telling me that all these people saying you can change your sex are wrong as you can't change your genetic makeup. Then again she hates the whole gender thing as she said it would make me a man going on those stereotypes.

Once kids get that being gay is as ordinary (and may be as relevant for them in future) as being straight is, and that bodily autonomy, personal boundaries and consent matter, and that adults who try to push on those boundaries are dangerous and that sex is a real and unchanging thing, and that sexist stereotypes ideas are just that and can be laughed at or politely ignored or actively critiqued, that seems like a good start. Agree it can be a lot more complex with teens because they don’t always want to agree with parents..

frazzled but why would she be mortified - if you complained the school wouldn't drag her into it, would they (no experience of secondary so don't know how it works).

But even so - I do think it's essential that the SLT know there's a teacher spouting this bullshit and that she is stopped from doing so. Quite aside from the anti-science nonsense, she is reinforcing outdated stereotypes and I would have thought any school worth its salt would be hellbent on teaching their pupils that who they are isn't defined by what they like, especially for girls.

I think it's bigger and more important that your DD possibly feeling mortified. Easy for me to say, of course...!

The truth. Including about autogynephilia

The biological male/female thing is tricky though, because there isn't a single criterion that is true of all females or all males, that I can think of. So, 'what's the difference between males and females?' is a tough one to answer.

Even XX, XY. There are women with XO (Turner syndrome), XXX, XY (genes translocated into wrong chromosome) etc. and men with XXY or even XX (if genes have been transolcated into the wrong chromosome).

Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia, not all women (or all men) have functional reproductive organs. Some women naturally produce a lot of testosterone and so are larger and harier than average.

I do find it tough to get a 'catch all' definition of male or female. I mean, I suppose you could isolate the genes that code for male development, and say if you have functional copies of all of those then you are male?

intersex is an anomaly and its existence doesn't negate the fact that humans are male and female. The existence of babies born blind doesn't negate the fact that humans are a sighted species. Plus those with intersex conditions are still either male or female.

And intersex conditions are diddly squat to do with gender identity, and intersex people have repeatedly asked for their conditions not to be dragged into the trans debate. So could you respect that please, Reagan? Thanks.

Mine are 14 and 10, the 14 year old is a bit “woke” but gradually managed to show her how her hard won rights are being eroded and she’s starting to realise that how some people choose to live CAN and WILL affect her. She is into fighting gender stereotypes and feminism but didn’t see any link between that and Trans
I have explained that while it’s just manners and courtesy to use preferred pronouns changing sex is a physical impossibility as it’s about biology.
The 10 year old (boy) is quite interested and is pretty good about challenging gender stereotypes- I sent some buns into school for a bake sale and the teacher said they she thought the girls would love the unicorn ones. He said that cakes were gender neutral!

Thing is though, a lot of the chromosomal variations are asymptomatic apart from fertility problems. Some even have normal fertility. So many of these people wouldn't class themselves as intersex. They'd never know unless genetically tested at some point. Not the case for the majority, to be sure, but to treat 'XX is female and XY is male' as a cast-iron statement is potentially problematic to my mind as the genotype and phenotype don't always match.

Not the case for the majority, to be sure, but to treat 'XX is female and XY is male' as a cast-iron statement is potentially problematic to my mind as the genotype and phenotype don't always match.

This is about speaking with children and young people.

XX is female and XY is male.
There are then some disorders of sexual development.

Humans are bipedal even though some are born without limbs etc

you may find a recent Radio 4 More or Less segment helpful as there has been much misinformation spread by TRAs:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3482851-More-or-Less-Radio-4-now-prevalence-of-intersex

Reagan Somerset

For the vast majority of people there is no disparity between genotype and phenotype but for the other few, I think this test works.

The three factors determining sex are;
Presence or absence of Y chromosome
Gonads
External Genitalia

Sex is determined by the presence of two of those factors.

I'm completely in agreement with you all about telling children the truth but what happens if children share that knowledge with others?

I told DS to stay quiet – he can be black and white and insist he’s right about things but he surprised me by coming back and saying he does that anyway in school.

DD1 got good sex education lessons on top of explanations at home - she's come to her own conclusions, more GC, and can read a room. She's has a close FtM trans friend who now has male friend and pronouns - no idea if there's anything else - she's polite and uses their preferred pronouns and name.

DS - only two school years behind DD1- has had really poor Sex ed classes - yr6 was confused by the trans stuff in them - yr7 in PSHE lessons got told there were 50 sexes .

Obviously at home we've had to unpick a lot of that and have few conversations.

He was bemused by DD1 friend FtM initially then just accepted it – and eventually got used to the new pronouns.

DD2 is more of a worry – I’m trying to get her up to speed before the school starts on it. She doesn’t have the science and history background interest the older two do. She keeps telling me that DD1 friend with now boy’s name is a girl – she seems very concerned about it. I really need to do more with her on the subject and quickly.

18 months ago I'd have said this wouldn't have been an issue in this very working class area. The trans students at secondary only happened months after the secondary school started talking about it – though perhaps that would have happened anyway.