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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Professor Kathleen Stock article, 'Can Biological Males Be Lesbians'

41 replies

R0wantrees · 14/01/2019 14:17

The Article, 14 JAN 2019

(extract)
Though precise statistics are unavailable, many transwomen are exclusively female-attracted. Prior to transition, they’re what we would ordinarily call heterosexual, or straight: males stably attracted to the opposite biological sex. When transition occurs, this pattern of attraction usually persists. But, for some, it’s unacceptable to now think of themselves as straight - for this carries with it a lingering connotation of manhood, now rejected. Hence some transwomen self-identify as lesbians. They do so even where their transition is only social, and not medical - which is most of the time. The rest of us are now urged to accept the phenomenon of a ‘lesbian with a penis’, or even a ‘girldick’.

When a group of lesbians called ‘Get the L Out’ disrupted the London Pride procession last year with banners saying ‘lesbian=female homosexual’, many were quick to express disgust at what they assumed was transphobia. When Labour activist Lily Madigan got involved in a Twitter argument last week with a lesbian academic about whether transwomen could be lesbians, many automatically took Madigan’s side, assuming this must be straightforward bigotry towards a vulnerable transwoman. However, a closer look at some documented background concerns here should slow down the knee-jerk outrage in both cases. In a nutshell, the main general concern - which is a structural one, and not directed towards any particular trans individuals - is given existing misogyny, when you admit males into a formerly female-only domain, certain predictable and harmful things start happening to females.

I’ll focus here on two such predictable things. The first is that, to put it crudely but accurately, males start badgering females for sex. A familiar phenomenon since time immemorial, one might think, though this time with an added twist: progressives are facilitating. Some trans ‘lesbians ‘ complain that lesbians won’t consider them as potential partners. Their focus is lesbians, because hitting on straight women might threaten the preferred narrative: a straight woman is attracted to men, after all. The resistance of many lesbians to have sex with male-bodied people is framed as a matter of inequality rather than orientation, and therefore something to be corrected in the name of progress. Lesbian resistance is sometimes referred to as the ‘cotton ceiling’, crassly riffing on the idea of a promotion ceiling for women at work, but substituting images of glass with that of underwear. Equally, sometimes those resisting are called ‘TERFs’, because it is assumed that their resistance is a result of trans-exclusive radical feminism, rather than because they are homosexual.

Impervious to the point that not being attracted to male bodies is the sine qua non of lesbianism, progressive academics and organisations are unstinting in their support of this quest to overcome lesbian boundaries. So, for instance, UK LGBT charity Stonewall is currently sponsoring transwoman Morgan Page to become a ‘transgender leader’. A few years back, Page was the organiser of a Toronto workshop ‘Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling’, but, despite advocating for lesbians as part of its remit, Stonewall apparently doesn’t mind. Diva magazine, a publication ostensibly exclusively for lesbians, proudly advertises itself as trans inclusive. Another popular publication aimed at lesbians explains how to have lesbian sex with a transwoman. And a recently advertised conference at the University of Brighton asks ‘How can gay space be made more trans-inclusive?’ citing ‘groups, bars, bedrooms’ as relevant examples. It’s not hard to work out whose bedrooms they’re talking about. (Hint: it’s not straight people’s). (continues)

concludes:
"For these reasons, all genuine progressives should firmly defend the definition of a lesbian as a female homosexual. They should refute any charge of unkindness, in doing so. ‘Unkind to whom?’ one might well ask, since the interests of vulnerable females matter just as much as those of transwomen, no matter what you might have lately heard. Female-attracted transwomen can have our strong support without usurping the category of lesbians."

www.thearticle.com/can-biological-males-be-lesbians/

OP posts:
Dhalandchips · 14/01/2019 14:19

My lesbian sister says that an ex man can't be a lesbian. I'll take her word for it. I reckon she should know Smile

VickyEadie · 14/01/2019 14:20

Cue a flood of articles and tweets spouting utter and complete looking-glass bollocks about it.

Katvonbatshitmermaid · 14/01/2019 14:25

I genuinely feel so sorry for lesbians.
Homophobia for a new age

HappyPunky · 14/01/2019 14:33

If there are a lot of transwomen who are lesbians their dating pool should be decent size they can leave out the female lesbians and date each other.

KingLooieCatz · 14/01/2019 14:39

Indeed HappyPunky. With so much coverage of diverse relationships, I'm surprised we haven't seen more happy transwomen couples.

MamaDane · 14/01/2019 14:40

I'm a lesbian and no a man, even though they have had surgery and physically resemble a woman, they will never taste of a woman, smell of a woman, feel like a woman, or be a woman.

To put it bluntly, a mutilated penis in the shape of a vulva, will never be a vulva.

I will respect someone's pronouns but not their delusion.

happydappy2 · 14/01/2019 14:40

Why are the TRAs so hellbent on talking rubbish? Of course a man cannot be a lesbian.....only a man can be a trans woman ergo transwomen can not be lesbian.

VickyEadie · 14/01/2019 14:41

If there are a lot of transwomen who are lesbians their dating pool should be decent size they can leave out the female lesbians and date each other.

Hasn't one of our favourite young British TW "lesbians" declared their disinterest in others who still have male genitals? TW being (apparently) allowed to have an aversion to penises, but cunty lesbians are certainly not, because y'know, transphobic and homophobic.

VickyEadie · 14/01/2019 14:43

To put it bluntly, a mutilated penis in the shape of a vulva, will never be a vulva.

It's not even as good as that in the main; the ones that want to coerce lesbians into sleeping with them - and I'm pretty much saying this without evidence but I reckon I'm right - are the ones who keep their dicks.

HappyPunky · 14/01/2019 14:43

Vicky that TW (women's officer?) is a transphobic vagina fetishist then obviously

Knicknackpaddyflak · 14/01/2019 14:44

I'm sure I've seen it explained on Twitter/YouTube that TW are allowed to insist on biological women only because it's 'triggering' to them to have sex with another TW.

Biological women are permitted no get out clause. If you're homosexual you need to work hard on getting over yourself.

Which flies right in the face of TW are W and always has been, and there's no difference between biological women and TW, and doesn't explain why homosexuality is something you should get over but transgender feelings aren't. There is no logic anywhere. The only fixed rule is the people with the penises always win.

I'm homosexual, it's biological women only, and anyone male hitting on me that dares to suggest my body and boundaries need to be inclusive of his penis is going to get a hard stare and told he is a bloke. It is not my problem to protect his feelings and boundaries when he has demonstrated absolutely no regard for mine.

TwitterLovesMAPs · 14/01/2019 14:46

If there are a lot of transwomen who are lesbians their dating pool should be decent size they can leave out the female lesbians and date each other

They don’t want to date each other because they know deep down that they’re men with penises. And they fancy women with vaginas. Just like lesbians do.

tobee · 14/01/2019 14:58

Just thinking of the psychological twister played by TRA makes me exhausted.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 14/01/2019 15:08

Recent article by Sue Donym 'The Elephant In The Room'

(extract)
"Allow me a tortured metaphor. Say that the entire LGBT community has gathered in a hall somewhere. They’ve all gathered for a nice vegan dinner, and the tables are laid out. Unfortunately for this gathering of the entire LGBT community, a large elephant has joined them. The elephant knocks over tables, eats all the lesbians dinner, and poops in the kitchen. Everyone at the gathering steadfastly ignores the elephant, despite the fact it is destroying the gathering. Eventually, one of the lesbians stands up, and complains about the elephant. The rest shout her down, kick her out of the gathering, and label her ‘elephant exclusionary’.

Gradually, the gathering and the hall is destroyed. The lesbians, kicked out in ever greater numbers for being ‘elephant exclusionary’, start making tofu in a bonfire outside. The gay men are still denying the elephant is even there as it repeatedly throws chairs at them. The elephant is smacking the bisexuals with a frying pan, and the transsexuals have been trampled. Everyone in the gathering is still trying to ignore the elephant.

Truly a tortured metaphor, but let’s give the elephant a name.

That name is ‘autogynephilia’.

I can hear you now, ‘auto-whata-philia?’. The word is difficult to get your mouth around. It is also a verboten word. People whisper it in dark alleys level verboten. Like ‘Voldemort’ in Harry Potter. The Elephant That Must Not Be Named. If you say it out loud, someone will arrive at your door and brand the four scarlet letters on your forehead ‘TERF’. I guarantee it. Even I avoided saying the word in my original article, Inauthentic Selves, which had a section on autogynephilia end up on the cutting room floor, because I wanted the broader LGBT community to be able to read about the way that LGBT activism has been austroturfed.

But I bet you’re thinking ‘I’ve never heard of these autoawhataphias’.

Are you a member of the LGBT community? If you are, surely you know a male to female transitioner. They are in their late thirties to their early fifties, they call themselves a ‘lesbian’, and they wear clothing that’s inappropriate for their age. They’re ex-cop, military, or most often, work in something involving computers.

I can see your head nodding behind the screen. Congratulations, you’ve seen autogynephilia.

But what is autogynephilia? What is the elephant? How is it relevant to the LGBT community? And why is no one pointing it out?" (continues)

concludes:
Autogynephilia is a weird concept. It can be inaccessible. But it needs to be discussed in the LGBT community, and openly. Not talking about it is causing way too much damage — we have had our organizations taken over, our spaces colonized, and our sexuality redefined. Thanks to these men, you can no longer say ‘I am, gay, meaning exclusively same-sex attracted’ without being labelled a TERF. That’s not a good thing.

Dancing around the subject isn’t helpful. While the ultimate result of autogynephilia is homophobic rhetoric, is important to remember that a sexual fantasy, not homophobia, motivates such rhetoric. That is the root cause of the problem.

Worse is the effect on autogynephiles themselves. ‘Transgender’ is not an umbrella. It is a term that erases the very different motivations and causes of various forms of gender dysphoria. It does people who claim the label absolutely no favors. The original inclusion of the ‘T’ was designed for homosexual transsexuals, and include them with other same-sex attracted individuals. It was not designed to include autogynephiles, who are heterosexual males, or ‘queer’ individuals who are heterosexual but believe dying their hair some variation of neon should mean they are included. Making ‘transgender’ an umbrella not only erases the very different causes and struggles associated with homosexual transsexuality, it also obscures the causes of, and struggles associated with autogynephilia. Autogynephilia is not a condition I would wish on anyone. It is a unique, somewhat bizarre struggle, and reading through many of the accounts of it was quite sad. It can make its sufferers lonely and unable to connect with intimate partners. But enabling it, and on a grand scale, has caused immense damage to homosexuals, particularly lesbians, who have lost almost all their spaces and communities to colonization.

Please discuss the elephant."

medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 14/01/2019 15:33

It’s the continuing appropriation of language that really gets to me.

Transwoman/transman (two new words made by adapting established words) was fine, imo. ‘Trans woman’ - not fine.

I notice some people happily self describe as ‘transbian’ to denote that they are a trans male person with who is attracted to females/other trans males with feminine presentation - if that became a universal thing, I probably would accept it.

But when the push keeps coming for ‘woman’ ‘girl’ and ‘lesbian’ it’s like a depressed spring - eventually it springs back and women are more and more likely to say, ‘nope - you are a man’.

Doc Stock is right. Lesbians are female homosexuals. Full stop.

R0wantrees · 14/01/2019 15:42

Magdalen Berns first video on her YouTube channel published
10 Apr 2016

'There Is No Such Thing as a Lesbian With a Penis!'
58,773 views

Flowers & Cake Magdalen

OP posts:
Badstyley · 14/01/2019 15:50

I’ve refused lots of men who claim to be lesbians over the years. It all looks the same to me, and they’ll all get exactly the same response.

A lesbian is a homosexual female. We don’t do men of any genital configuration, and we don’t do dick. If it has, or has ever had a penis then it’s not a woman and it’s not a lesbian. End of.

LangCleg · 14/01/2019 15:58

It's all so dull and predictable, isn't it?

NEWSFLASH!

Heterosexual males feel entitled to sex and display misogynistic and homophobic attitudes.

Colour me shocked.

donajimena · 14/01/2019 16:08

So what happens if you are a straight woman who for some reason fancies a transwoman? Oh yeah, according to Alex Drummond that would be the 'inner lesbian' being drawn out. You couldn't make it up could you? Except it is all made up. Utter bollocks to suit their own narrative.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 14/01/2019 16:12

Rather like insisting that heterosexual wives have 'become lesbians' as a result of their transition.

No, they really, really haven't, and forcing someone to redefine themselves to fit your personal narrative? There's a Freedom Programme for that.

VickyEadie · 14/01/2019 16:14

Vicky that TW (women's officer?) is a transphobic vagina fetishist then obviously

I knew you'd know who I meant!

NicoAndTheNiners · 14/01/2019 16:16

I'm sure I've seen it explained on Twitter/YouTube that TW are allowed to insist on biological women only because it's 'triggering' to them to have sex with another TW

Well what about the lesbians who might find it triggering to have sex with a penis? Does their view not count? No, of course it bloody doesn't because they're only women who should do as they're told!

Makes me so. Mad,

Knicknackpaddyflak · 14/01/2019 16:32

Nico at this point a TRA would tell you a whole lot of spiel about 'privilege'.

But yes, it basically boils down to women should stfu and do as they're told, and a gut level belief that men have a right to women's bodies and women have no right to gatekeep.

Sexnotgender · 14/01/2019 16:39

I’m not a lesbian and even I know that if I was I’d be attracted to females (of the adult human variety).

As a heterosexual woman I’m attracted to males of the adult human variety.

Males cannot be lesbians, to say they can is grossly homophobic.

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