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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Professor Kathleen Stock article, 'Can Biological Males Be Lesbians'

41 replies

R0wantrees · 14/01/2019 14:17

The Article, 14 JAN 2019

(extract)
Though precise statistics are unavailable, many transwomen are exclusively female-attracted. Prior to transition, they’re what we would ordinarily call heterosexual, or straight: males stably attracted to the opposite biological sex. When transition occurs, this pattern of attraction usually persists. But, for some, it’s unacceptable to now think of themselves as straight - for this carries with it a lingering connotation of manhood, now rejected. Hence some transwomen self-identify as lesbians. They do so even where their transition is only social, and not medical - which is most of the time. The rest of us are now urged to accept the phenomenon of a ‘lesbian with a penis’, or even a ‘girldick’.

When a group of lesbians called ‘Get the L Out’ disrupted the London Pride procession last year with banners saying ‘lesbian=female homosexual’, many were quick to express disgust at what they assumed was transphobia. When Labour activist Lily Madigan got involved in a Twitter argument last week with a lesbian academic about whether transwomen could be lesbians, many automatically took Madigan’s side, assuming this must be straightforward bigotry towards a vulnerable transwoman. However, a closer look at some documented background concerns here should slow down the knee-jerk outrage in both cases. In a nutshell, the main general concern - which is a structural one, and not directed towards any particular trans individuals - is given existing misogyny, when you admit males into a formerly female-only domain, certain predictable and harmful things start happening to females.

I’ll focus here on two such predictable things. The first is that, to put it crudely but accurately, males start badgering females for sex. A familiar phenomenon since time immemorial, one might think, though this time with an added twist: progressives are facilitating. Some trans ‘lesbians ‘ complain that lesbians won’t consider them as potential partners. Their focus is lesbians, because hitting on straight women might threaten the preferred narrative: a straight woman is attracted to men, after all. The resistance of many lesbians to have sex with male-bodied people is framed as a matter of inequality rather than orientation, and therefore something to be corrected in the name of progress. Lesbian resistance is sometimes referred to as the ‘cotton ceiling’, crassly riffing on the idea of a promotion ceiling for women at work, but substituting images of glass with that of underwear. Equally, sometimes those resisting are called ‘TERFs’, because it is assumed that their resistance is a result of trans-exclusive radical feminism, rather than because they are homosexual.

Impervious to the point that not being attracted to male bodies is the sine qua non of lesbianism, progressive academics and organisations are unstinting in their support of this quest to overcome lesbian boundaries. So, for instance, UK LGBT charity Stonewall is currently sponsoring transwoman Morgan Page to become a ‘transgender leader’. A few years back, Page was the organiser of a Toronto workshop ‘Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling’, but, despite advocating for lesbians as part of its remit, Stonewall apparently doesn’t mind. Diva magazine, a publication ostensibly exclusively for lesbians, proudly advertises itself as trans inclusive. Another popular publication aimed at lesbians explains how to have lesbian sex with a transwoman. And a recently advertised conference at the University of Brighton asks ‘How can gay space be made more trans-inclusive?’ citing ‘groups, bars, bedrooms’ as relevant examples. It’s not hard to work out whose bedrooms they’re talking about. (Hint: it’s not straight people’s). (continues)

concludes:
"For these reasons, all genuine progressives should firmly defend the definition of a lesbian as a female homosexual. They should refute any charge of unkindness, in doing so. ‘Unkind to whom?’ one might well ask, since the interests of vulnerable females matter just as much as those of transwomen, no matter what you might have lately heard. Female-attracted transwomen can have our strong support without usurping the category of lesbians."

www.thearticle.com/can-biological-males-be-lesbians/

OP posts:
HappyPunky · 14/01/2019 16:55

Vicky Wink

HappyPunky · 14/01/2019 17:03

It comes down to that you're either bisexual or transphobic unless you're trans which gives you a free pass HmmConfused

Sexnotgender · 14/01/2019 17:06

Trans is indeed a free pass it seems. None of the nasty lady dick if you’re trans. Just the regular old fashioned lesbians need to do lady dick.

HumourlessFeminist · 14/01/2019 17:13

I can't believe we have to spend time even talking about this - it's completely ridiculous. But here we are, and we do need to talk about it.

So, if a male-bodied transwoman convinced a lesbian to have sex with them, what would happen? Would they have sex, including penis in vagina sex? Surely this would look a lot like heterosexual sex Confused. Although the transwoman would probably be enjoying it much more, and the lesbian much less.

What's that word for making someone have sex with someone that they don't want to have sex with again?

Katvonbatshitmermaid · 14/01/2019 17:14

Titania is blowing them away on Twitter .

The last line is classic

Professor Kathleen Stock article, 'Can Biological Males Be Lesbians'
nauticant · 14/01/2019 17:14

Except it is all made up. Utter bollocks to suit their own narrative.

It's gaslighting. Gaslighters are abusers.

Floisme · 14/01/2019 17:15

It's funny how we don't hear much about gay men being hassled for sex by transmen.
I wonder why.

littlbrowndog · 14/01/2019 17:16

Stay in your lane bigot

Hahaha owned

Iused2BanOptimist · 14/01/2019 17:16

Knickknack
And then you have the surrendered bride in chief, Amanda who fiercely guards her new status as a lesbian. Hmm

Professor Kathleen Stock article, 'Can Biological Males Be Lesbians'
R0wantrees · 14/01/2019 17:21

It's gaslighting. Gaslighters are abusers.

important thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

OP posts:
Knicknackpaddyflak · 14/01/2019 17:31

Would they have sex, including penis in vagina sex? Surely this would look a lot like heterosexual sex

One of the most well known articles written by a TW regarding the cotton ceiling, bewails that lesbians 'resist the penis' (direct quote) and refuse to understand that the TW's penis, being a lady penis, would feel entirely different to a man's penis inside them. Implication: if you'd just try it, you'd enjoy it with me .

Total lack of empathy or awareness, or understanding that they cannot control someone else's perceptions of reality. It's as insane as insisting that men should not change with women unless the man identifies as a woman, completely ignoring that the woman's experience in both cases is identical. Someone else's subjective internal world has no bearing on the perceptions of someone else.

This is what they mean by 'erasing' and 'denying the right to exist' - because it's refusing to accept and go along with the reality inside their head.

The entitlement of it, the narcissism of it, the lack of empathy and double standards of how they feel entitled to be treated by others compared to their perception of what treatment others are entitled to from them - Lundy Bancroft could write several whole new books. It's nothing new. It's classic dysfunctional thinking, largely found in abusive men to excuse themselves and their behaviour.

Incidentally, abusive men hate MN too. Teaching other women that they don't have to accept being treated like this, deserve better and need to walk away is downright evil in their eyes.

FlyingOink · 14/01/2019 19:52

It's funny how we don't hear much about gay men being hassled for sex by transmen.
I wonder why.
There's a few threads on datalounge, and things like this:

whoiscis.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/will-we-be-more-vocal-as-gay-men-if-trans-men-start-demanding-we-sleep-with-them/

FlyingOink · 14/01/2019 19:54

I love Doc Stock. There should be a fan club. I want a pin badge.
Everything she says is so well constructed and the amount of crap she's gone through is quite something. Thanks Doc.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 14/01/2019 20:24

It's the 'Rapey' Riley School of Sexual Thought: women are not supposed to say no to having sex with men.

feministfairy · 14/01/2019 20:27

Another one who thinks that Doc Stock is awesome. Her articles are quite outstanding. Great woman!

SignMeUp · 14/01/2019 21:11

Great Article. This is a very share-able, concise, on-point expose that can raise awareness amongst the wokiest.
Big fan here of Dr. Stock. Thank you!
Here is a very recent interview that is also fantastic: th.beat

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