Help me explain to DH

[comfyoldcardi]

DH insists that self ID is not a problem because it will still require official paperwork and nobody will be able to just go into a changing room or be admitted to a hospital ward based on a verbal statement.
He insists that any and all reports of this happening are sensationalist reporting.
Please can anyone direct me to straightforward evidence?
I have talked to him about Karen White, showed him the Telegraph article. He still insists that self id requires paperwork.

Another good one to show him is lily madigan. Presents as completely male and evidently isn’t on any treatment. Doesn’t have a GRC, or at least didn’t when Lily got the job of labour women’s officer for her local branch a few years ago, taking that opportunity from an actual woman. Lily also threatened Lily’s secondary school with legal action as they weren’t letting lily use female facilities, and won.

Lily has a totally unaltered male body and is attracted only to women. Identifies as a lesbian (indeed, their twitter handle is @lesbianleftie).

Thank you
This is all useful.

He is stuck on whether a person can just say they identify as a particular gender or if they have to fill in a form

Because there are two things in play.

Equality act and the gender recognition act.

Under the equality act, you can just say it out loud. Because it's about being on 'any part of the journey'. And bingo, you cannot be discriminated against. So it assumes that you have a protected characteristic of gender reassignment, purely by saying so. In fact you don't even have to have that protected characteristic. If you are discriminated against on the basis that someone assumes you have, it's a breach. It's very woolly as to how this can play out, in terms of female spaces. Because the trans lobby claim that this protected characteristic trumps all others. And many businesses are going with it.

It doesn't. They all have equal weight. But there is absolutely no paperwork involved, at all.

The problem is, it's fairly discretionary and about personal policy. It's all about interpretation. There are no hard and fast laws. If your husband likes rules, he's shit out of luck with this one.

But that's different to being legally female. For which you need a gender recognition certificate. At the moment there are three criteria (age, living as your preferred gender for two years, and a diagnosis of gender dysphoria).

The government want to eliminate all the criteria, so it just becomes literally a form filling exercise. Name, address, cheque, your certificate will be in the post, thank you and good night.

I posted the Irish form on here awhile ago, and it was just that.

Legally female means you can get sent straight to a female prison, and go on an all women shortlist. You have to be treated as a woman unless the circumstances are exceptional. But, those circumstances do exist.

You have to have a form, though because you have to pay for the certificate and give them your address so they can send it to you.

Does he realise that you cannot ask someone for their paperwork, that the secret nature of it means it is easier for people to pretend.

Also, people need paperwork to volunteer as scout leaders, to work with children, run church youth groups etc. All things that have been abused. They increased the level of scrutiny (DBS) to get the authorities involved in people's paperwork. This is the reverse.

An excellent example from Sloth regarding Madigan, and I will add the rather large cyclist - Rachel McKinnon - who delights in dumping all over women's sport. If a picture of McKinnon on the podium with two women either side does not convince the OP's hubby then nothing will.

Yes he does like rules and is a very law abiding person. He is also kind and generous, always believes the best of people.
Not a bad person.
Just thinks there must be a mistake or misunderstanding.

Next time you go somewhere with sexed changing room, walk into the mens. When he asks why, say you've self-id'd as a man.

(Assuming the venue is as try-hard as most, any attendants won't dare question it either. Bingo. Evidence.)

Just thinks there must be a mistake or misunderstanding.

You can tell him that this reaction is incredibly common. Everyone thinks it. They think it can't possibly be true that a man can say he is a woman and businesses, retailers, the youth hostelling assoc and the police, the Labour Party, etc are falling over themselves to accept it.

But they are.

Show him this.

The question we are debating is whether the law intends that anyone who self ids still needs to fill in an official piece of paper somewhere or if anyone can just arrive in a gym, hospital etc and state verbally that they self id as a particular gender and that is sufficient to be accepted.

It's both. According to what is planned, in theory there should be "an official piece of paper somewhere". However, in practice because in many cases it will not be permitted for people who safeguard women's single-sex spaces to request that the official piece of paper be shown, having it will be redundant. It won't be acquired by some trans people because they won't need it from a practical point of view.

Does your DH often struggle with there being a difference between what is supposed to be done and what is actually done in practice?

I think you are arguing at cross purposes. (I expect that happens a lot when you try to discuss things with your DH.)

The problem is most places can change their policy to say a service is single gender, without any recourse to law.

And by single gender, of course it becomes mixed sex.

So a man in a frock demands entry, the swim changing room has to make a decision. They are told that their trans policy should be inclusive, so they usher him in. It's within their rights to allow men in the ladies. There is no law.

This is largely about public opinion and customs.

The two things where a certificate is necessary are prisons and all women shortlists.

However, a man without a certificate got transferred to a female prison and the Labour Party have stated that they will allow non-certificated transwomen on all women shortlists. They literally say women and anyone who identifies as one. So it's all bollocks.

Yes he does like rules and is a very law abiding person. He is also kind and generous, always believes the best of people.
Just thinks there must be a mistake or misunderstanding.

It is very shocking to realise what has been happening.
Not just the full-extent but how and that trusted bodies have not stopped/could not stop something which has very serious implications.
Its also very understandable to believe it couldn't happen.

It has though and England & Wales are currently within a very small window of opportunity to challenge this and stand up for women's rights, safeguarding children, free speech, political process and fair laws.

Here's a few thoughts about the "official piece of paper somewhere" proposed for self-ID:

1. in some cases it won't be meaningful because anyone for any reason will be able to take the steps needed to create it;
2. it won't be useful because in most cases anyone in a position of safeguarding won't be able to ask to see it;
3. because it won't be useful, many trans people will not bother with it and will just go for a verbal statement of self-ID; and
4. custom and practice will build up initially that people declaring self-ID will have to be taken at their word and eventually it will not be something that is even raised by either side and there will be a free for all. (Well, free for a certain group and another particular group will have to suck it up.)

I wouldn't put a pile of faith in a piece of paper. Not that piece of paper anyway.

Crikey some odd replies on this thread during the wee hours!
OP sorry you're feeling ganged up on I think many of us have been where you are - when we talk to people about the impact self ID may have it's almost too ridiculous to believe. The risks are so huge people don't think it could happen. But of course it already is.
Some excellent references here for you to share with him. I honestly think my DH thought I was talking nonsense when I first started having conversations with him ... what opened his eyes was the impact on female sports, examples like Karen White, seeing some of the vile crap written (and allowed to stand) by some TRAs on twitter and the Posie/Harrop interview a few months ago.

Good luck and huge respect for not giving up!

One of our lads from Man Friday just sent off their documents changing their 'gender' to Male, and their driving licence was sent back, stating they are indeed 'male'.

No checks, no balances, no nothing

Not only that, if a man is arrested in a dress/with some lipstick on, the news outlets have to report that this person is a woman, when they have not even had the bonus of discussing the person's 'gender' or sex with them.

As otherwise the TRAs will come for their jobs.

Holding a GRC allows you to have a new birth certificate which states your sex so the sex based exemptions in the Equality Act are useless. Many organisations are moving ahead of the law - to see how this can work in practice have a look at this experience from the Scottish Youth Hostelling Association:-

manfridayuk.org/2018/06/15/a-scottish-hostelling-experience/

OP sorry if my post came across as a bit sucky eggy. I totally hear you re your DH's incredulity- it's utter madness. Almost Orwellian.

Hope you manage to get him onside.

FatFeministCow67SRBseperation
Wow! Charming.
Thanks to everyone who sent useful information.
I will read everything.

The question we are debating is whether the law intends that anyone who self ids still needs to fill in an official piece of paper somewhere or if anyone can just arrive in a gym, hospital etc and state verbally that they self id as a particular gender and that is sufficient to be accepted.

There is a lot of misinformation about self-ID, which does cause a lot of confusion.

In the UK, in order to change your gender, you are required to obtain a gender recognition certificate. At the moment, this process requires certain conditions to be met (such as being diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and living as your preferred gender for a period of two years).

The Gender Recognition Act proposes replacing this system with a simplified process, whereby you can self-identify as your preferred gender and this will be sufficient for you to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate. It hasn't yet been determined how this will be done. In Ireland, you have to sign a legal document before a lawyer confirming that you understand the serious consequences of changing your gender, so it could be something like that.

So the short answer is, yes there will still be a need for paperwork. Self-ID makes it simpler to obtain that paperwork.

In the UK, we already rely on self-ID when it comes to deciding who can access certain spaces. Nobody is expected to produce a birth certificate to use gender-segregated bathrooms, changing facilities, clubs etc. For a very long time, trans men and women have had the right to use the facilities that correspond with the gender they identify as. That right was codified in law in 1998 by the Human Rights Act.

Self-ID has a very specific application; it makes the process of obtaining a GRC more straightforward. But having a GRC isn't like having an all access pass to gender segregated spaces. Trans people already have that right, and have done for 20 years. Having a GRC is useful for things like getting married, where you want the registrar to record your preferred gender. It has quite a limited and specific range of uses.

There is a lot of misinformation about self-ID, which does cause a lot of confusion

see above