Help me explain to DH

[comfyoldcardi]

DH insists that self ID is not a problem because it will still require official paperwork and nobody will be able to just go into a changing room or be admitted to a hospital ward based on a verbal statement.
He insists that any and all reports of this happening are sensationalist reporting.
Please can anyone direct me to straightforward evidence?
I have talked to him about Karen White, showed him the Telegraph article. He still insists that self id requires paperwork.

Thanks. I will read all the links.
I think DH is fairly representative of the public at large tbh.

be sure to show him Alex Drummond - redefining the boundaries of what it means to be a woman here. Good of him.

He, and the poster who agrees with him, are wrong. No "official paperwork" needed in most cases.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3475792-Telegraph-article-NHS-trans-row-as-men-get-access-to-womens-wards-if-they-identify-as-female

Tell your DH to look up the campaign #manfridays then he'll understand how ridiculous self ID is.

He actually isn't in favour 9f self id. He thinks that medical and psychiatric process is very important.
We are just stuck on this one point. He doesn't believe anything he reads in the papers. Which is generally not a bad thing. I am going to read the references as soon as I can.

I was under the Impression that you can't ask for the paperwork because that outs them and being believed to be the opposite sex is the point of the paperwork to begin with.

When it affects men they will complain. I will be using mens facilities if the women's seem unsafe.

Actually, does anyone know if Karen White had to produce any documents in order to be moved to a female prison?

Legally a man according to the guardian and the prison policy is flexible because there is a risk of harm for transwoman offenders in a male prison. Which says it all!!

So no paperwork, just a verbal declaration?
That would be a good example if I can prove it.

Karen White doesn't have a GRC and apart from dressing in feminine clothes and wearing make-up, there's no other commitment to transitioning.

White was jailed for various crimes including violent rape and sexual assault in the male estate but began transitioning in jail. White attended various support groups and became aware of their 'rights'. White approached a case review board that considers the needs of transgender prisoners (prison governors, psychologists) and made their case for transfer.

White was transferred to a women's estate at the very first level (so no chance to examine offending reports and history, no consideration of reports made by those who'd met White and stated them as being "manipulative and controlling"). White went on to repeat his abusive, predatory pattern and raped 3 different women.

Despite being legally a man at the time, the Ministry of Justice decides to be ahead of the law and placed White's feelings above the safety of women.

Does having a GRC alter male pattern violence? Nope. But at least one would hope that applying for a GRC would 'oust' any man who's using the GRC for nefarious means.

Agencies across our civilised world are changing their Policies to be 'woke' and inclusive at the cost of basic safeguarding. Fact.

Self ID is a legal drive to do away with all aspects of GRC due process. It will be abused, it IS being abused and women are very very frightened. Your DH won't grasp this because he's a reasonable and decent man. But there are women for when time began who know the lengths that men will go to
to hunt their prey. Self ID is the green light for these predatory men.

NB - I've not mentioned Trans Women here have I... yet I would be deemed as transphobic for holding these views.

Don't proove it. Dare him... dare him to do a woman wednesday.

Apologies - rapid typing has meant poor grammar.

I find it helps to come at it without even mentioning Transwomen.

But don't get us started on stonewalls Trans 'umbrella'. Tell your DH who is defined as Trans in this brave new and stunning world. Cross dressers, fetishists, autogynephiles. Tell him if your daughter was a lesbian, the. She's be ostracised by many of the woke LGBTQ community for not wanting to have sex with a lady penis. If your son is gay, then he has to include vaginas in his sexuality or be deemed as a bigot. Sex based definitions, biology etc are being erased.

We could go on and on.

I have told him all of that.
He is stuck on whether a person can just say they identify as a particular gender or if they have to fill in a form.
I know it sounds pedantic but it really is that simple.

If youre in the Uk, buy the Telegraph. The article is on the front page.

This is the training that was given to health care professionals by Tara Hewitt.
'trans people and cancer'

Hospital trusts' policies are usually available online.
You would need to look at both the same-sex accomodation policy (wards showers, toilets ec) and also the the transgender policy.

The conversation started because of the Telegraph article.
Hence the not believing everything in the papers.

Ah, apologies.

This article has the detailed background to the situation.
It has a lot of evidence and is well researched

October 2018 'Sex, Gender & the NHS
Part 1: The “Single-Sex Hospital Wards” that have always been a lie'

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

this thread has many resources and people new to the issues have found it useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

He is stuck on whether a person can just say they identify as a particular gender or if they have to fill in a form.

People can self declare their gender in some circumstances expect to be be treated as the opposite sex.
(see recent thread Mermaids Training for teachers for insight as to how this has come about)

April 2018 ManFriday demonstrated how easy it was to 'fill in a form' and obtain id with a changed sex marker in this a case driving licence:
manfridayuk.org/2018/04/20/self-id-and-driving-licences/

Thank you.
I have been learning about this issue by reading threads on here for the last year or so. There must be lots of people who, like DH, are just average people who haven't even come across it or thought about it.
There is no point in expecting them to grasp it easily.
Most people need simple evidence to answer their questions.
I hate to say it but I think the majority of older, decent men would find it hard to believe.

Has he read the Girlguiding UK policy? That very clearly states that no paperwork is required, as long as someone 'identifies as a woman or girl' they are welcome as a full member.

Just one example, but if GGUK sees it that way, other organisations will.

So they would just speak to the leader, say they ID as female and that would be enough?

I can understand why someone would find that hard to believe.

He is stuck on whether a person can just say they identify as a particular gender or if they have to fill in a form

First of all, under the new proposals the system will be so streamlined ANYONE can do it. So yes there will be a form to get a new birth certificate, but it will be a quick online thing you can do yourself in a few minutes, with no medical opinion required. That’s largely what people are objecting to.

Second of all, in practical terms, the idea of people who blatantly look like men in women’s spaces is already being normalised. No staff member is going to ask to see a birth certificate when e.g. what looks like a man in a dress is going into a women’s shop changing room, because they’re terrified of being labelled transphobic. There are already loads of instances of this happening. But even if they COULD ask for a birth certificate - which they never will - it would prove nothing of the person had one. The new process will require no surgery, no minimum length of time living as a woman. Your husband could fill in the form himself and be declared a woman, once the new process is in place.

Show him Andraya Yarwood, a teenage boy who competes as a girl in the US at track events despite having no treatment at all. He has literally just changed his name to a girls name. Of course he wins everything. It may seem insignificant, but in the US, college scholarships worth thousands are up for grabs for the leading sportswomen at schools. It is absolutely worth pretending to be a woman by merely changing your name, and I believe that is what yarwood is doing.

He is stuck on whether a person can just say they identify as a particular gender or if they have to fill in a form.
I know it sounds pedantic but it really is that simple.

He's not pedantic.
It seems he is insisting on a particular 'proof' in order for the reality of what is happening get his approval.

ManFriday were formed having established that for pools following the Swim England's gender self-id policies (they pre-empted the GRA changes going through) all that was required was for a person to assert they identified as the opposite sex. No need to change name, dress or even to continually identify this way (hence the name #ManFriday as the women involved identified as men on only one day a week)
ManFriday demonstrated that women identifying as men could use the single sex changing rooms, showers and 'men only' swim sessions under the new guidelines and so of course the reverse was also true.

Also within the policy was guidance that if a female customer complained about a male bodied person (with male genitals) being in the changing facilities, staff should 're-educate' her.

This happening gained media coverage and the Swim England policy was 'temporarily withdrawn'.

It's important to know how significant ManFriday's actions were.
The awareness and action grew from a MN thread.

I can understand why someone would find that hard to believe

Yes, but it’s true. That’s why there was such an outcry. It’s truly mad.