Why are people so afraid?

[Yambabe]

Really brought home to me this week. After the Martina thing not just peaking me but sort of chucking me off a cliff I have posted a couple of things on FB.

Ended with pretty much a 3-way convo, me, late 40s recently transitioned transwoman, father of a young transman, with occasional input from father of a young transwoman and concerned mother of pre-teen asd daughter.

It stayed respectful. Ideas went back and forth. TW friend posted same old same old mermaids/stonewall stuff, in support of self-id and medication pathway for kids. I refuted with links and stats, and asked questions which were ignored. The 2 parents of trans said some really thought-provoking and mainly gc stuff.

Thing is, throughout the whole 3 days my inbox didn't stop pinging. People saying how much they agreed with me, but couldn't say so openly because of the impact it could have on their lives or jobs. People looking at what had happened to Glinner, and particularly Robert Webb, and backing off.

How the hell did it get like this? Maybe more importantly how the hell do we let them know it's ok to have an opinion and be able to state what it is?

I am old and unimportant in the grand scheme of things but I have kids, and grandkids. Neices and nephews. How do I help make the world safe for them again?

Having no personal values, rewriting history and keeping up with woke ethics keep you safe in society whilst alive, you're only condemned once you're dead.

It's horrible isn't it OP. It shouldn't be down to individuals to risk their livelihoods, it should be properly discussed in government and clearly outlined in law.

I would suggest everyone writes to their MP and copies the PM and other party leaders.

well... this christmas we had a multigenerational viewing of call the midwife
me and dp (in our prime)
dcs (mid-late 20s)
my mum (80s)
after my mum left we discussed Call the MW, the dcs felt it glossed over or underplayed some serious social issues. I agreed but think they do well to raise them at all on early evening family christmas telly. So some of the issues were - treatment of kids with disabilities, the adoption of orphans from HongKong (I didn't know this was a thing) and especially the transportation of children to australia. The latter we talked about most, with the DCs incredulous that anyone should ever think this was a good idea.

But I said that at the time people really believed it was a positive thing to do, partly because we didn't appreciate then what we know now about the abuse of children and the importance of attachment and early emotional development etc etc
My conclusion was that there are things that are being done now that people believe are for the best and that in the future we will look back and wonder why we ever allowed that to happen. I didn't pursue this as we have clashed quite seriously wrt TG issues, but I feel that right now most of the people who are giving it any thought at all are thinking 'lets be kind to these poor kids' just like the people on CTM who thought they were sending children away to a happy loving home in Australia.

We are actually on the right side of history, we are the people who are raising the alarm, we are the people trying to put the brakes on. Maybe framing it that way for those who are afraid would help?
It's like people sometimes say, if you ever wondered what you would have done in 1930s Germany....look at what you are doing now, there is your answer. What would you have done when they said 'hey lets send these kids to australia, lets leave the kid with CP in a corner because no one will ever adopt him'?....that's what you are doing now.

newtlover

Very good points.

CP?

Cerebral palsy I guess?

I think social media being able to influence companies' decisions is the main problem. Ordinarily, ones employer shouldn't have anything to do with one's political opinions, except where the employer is brought into disrepute.
But now tens of thousands of people can, whilst expending very little effort (key) harass the employer to the extent they become concerned about financials.
Bob from B&Q should be absolutely free to tweet his support for Brexit, his concerns around Chinese expansionism and artificial island building, or his favourite celebrity in the jungle - if he never mentions he works at B&Q, then B&Q have got no moral right to censor him.
What's happening here is that Bob is being doxxed, outed as a B&Q employee, and B&Q end up running scared, not wanting to be associated with such a monster. In fact Bob should have expected to be able to express his opinion without reference to his employer.
Most working stooges, no matter how big their house or fancy their car, will be penniless within a few months of losing their regular income. I've seen it written that most people have two months' wiggle room and that's it.
I guess we get lured into a false sense of security in anonymously posting; it wouldn't be impossible to dox any of us on here so the moderation policy is helpful in self regulating what we can write on here.

Those are really good points, newtlover. We are indeed the people raising the alarm. It saddens me that people can't see it - quite often the same people who can't understand why we ever sent kids to Australia, or why the BBC didn't stop Savile. Instead they delude themselves that they're doing the "kind" thing.

Ace post, newtlover.

I enjoy watching Call the Midwife with my DPs as DF was a newly qualified doctor doing obstetrics at the time. My DM was also working as a hospital social worker, what used to be called an almoner. They're both 90 now and their insights and reminiscences are fascinating.

newtlover's post reminded me of this great thread. History teaches us that most authoritarian regimes begin by deceiving people that they are left wing or progressive...

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1073538210494599168.html

And while I'm at it, this is a brilliant thread by the same author on the current climate of fear.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1075033888110624770.html

Actually I'm just going to spam you, this thread with the "Pedophile Manifesto" is bloody terrifying and also by the same author, I want to leave it here in case I ever need to find it again. It's disturbing to see how much of what's in the manifesto is already happening. Our causes are sex positivity, anti-ageism, bodily autonomy and the right to privacy...

twitter.com/pankhurstem/status/991258041038368768?lang=en

For your answer I think you only have to look at how controversial it still is for a female politician to call herself a feminist.

As flying says lots of people have to be careful what they post if they wish to keep their job/career.

This is especially true if you work in the public or charity sector or other woke organisation.

Even if it won't affect your job, people have to consider the affect on their mental health. I'm not sure I could be as strong as others in the face of relentless online bullying.

I also think the right side of history argument is true. Look how shamefully pacifists were treated during WW1 & WW2.

yes, CP=cerebral palsy, which I guessed was what the child actor had- though I wouldn't rate him as an actor, he seemed altogether too happy and sociable for a character with the story given
Prawn, my DCs also have to put up with me shouting
'wrap that baby up! put a hat on her! look at her skin, it's wet, she's going to freeze....' etc
(ex MW)
not as bad as Eastenders though, where I walk in and say
'no wonder she's having such a hard time with that labour! what should she do kids?'
(kids) 'get off her back and onto all 4s....we know....'

Interesting observation from Call the midwife. I felt the same watching the BBC rerun of Outnumbered, policing each others language and behaviour.

The people who say 'why are people so afraid' are obviously lucky enough not to work in jobs where they would get in trouble for voicing opinions. So self-employed, not working, or retired or something. It's not a myth that people have been subjected to the most horrendous harassment for stating relatively innocuous views. It's real and it's happening. If you're privileged enough not to have to worry about it- go for it. But don't you start having a go at people who just don't want to get fired so that they can't house themselves and their family. Who's going to help them when they get fired? Will the brave truth-speakers step up then? Don't think so.
Someone in the media like Julie Bindel is in a very different position to someone who is employed. I know Julie and Magdalen Berns have berated women who don't risk their anonymity (and therefore livelihood), but I don't think it's right. I know Julie et al cop a lot of flack for their views, but they also have a lot of supporters. If I got doxxed and then fired, literally nobody from the general public would give a shit or support me.

The people who say 'why are people so afraid' are obviously lucky enough not to work in jobs where they would get in trouble for voicing opinions.

Nope, I made choices and refused chances that would benefit me personally.

I don't ask everyone to do that, to call others privileged when you make different personal choices is no different to policing another woman for FF v BF in my opinion.

For whatever reason you choose to remain in a job that blocks your freedom of expression, odd choice to be critical of women who don't have the same priorities as you.

I think that politics is in a terrible place in general at the moment. If you hold the wrong views you will be ostracised, companies are desperate not to be seen as evil money making machines. The Scottish gvt hate crime campaign thing is an example. Many people will have no idea what a "transphobe" even is. Hate crime law is in IMO a backward step anyway and it's been used to insulate groups from being challenged.

All these things are lumped together, it's very worrying. If you think a man has no place in women's facilities you're basically a nazi.

I 'choose' to remain in a job that would probably cause me significant issues were I more public than I am because I have to pay for food and shelter for my family.

I am actually probably far more 'out' than is probably sensible online, and a little bit of digging would be all it took to dox me. I would not welcome it, and it may well cost me my job. Yes, I'd feel the sweet justification of the martyr for the cause, but that would do fuck all to keep my kids in shoes and beans on toast.

Everyone makes tough choices about the sacrifices they are willing to make, and I totally understand why Julie Bindel gets annoyed, and I speak up in support of her lots. The divide and conquer stuff is absolute nonsense.

Working class women often do not have the luxury to 'choose' jobs where they may speak freely. Other women do and good luck to them, they have my support.

For whatever reason you choose to remain in a job that blocks your freedom of expression, odd choice to be critical of women who don't have the same priorities as you.

I wouldn't be able to do my job- the thing I have trained for for years if I was open about my views. If I don't work, I don't eat. It's relatively simple. I am not going to give up my livelihood for this and to suggest to anyone that this is a viable option does reek of privilege I am afraid. It means either that you work in a profession or for an employer where this would not be as big an issue as it would in other jobs (whether due to the type of job or your seniority), or that you are not the sole breadwinner in your household and that losing your job would not have such a devastating impact as it would on others.

That is before we get onto issues of mental health, anxiety and depression. Yes, high profile women get a lot of abuse, but they have way more support from followers than your bog-standard secondary school teacher whose head gets confronted with a petition calling for her to be fired immediately.

I know Julie et al cop a lot of flack for their views, but they also have a lot of supporters. If I got doxxed and then fired, literally nobody from the general public would give a shit or support me.

YY.

I am not going to give up my livelihood for this and to suggest to anyone that this is a viable option does reek of privileg

Receipts please, who apart from yourself said this?

It means either that you work in a profession or for an employer where this would not be as big an issue as it would in other jobs (whether due to the type of job or your seniority), or that you are not the sole breadwinner in your household

You think I am in a senior role with my standard of English? I am surprised the old attack of IQ isn't being brought out. I am the only adult in my home. You sound like the judgmental one and I am done with you attacking me because of your life choices, I already said what your choose is up to you. Yet you keep judging others, inventing words in their mouth and transferring your stuff on others.

You choose not to retrain, your choice restricts you, not me, you live with your lifestyle and decisions, it's not others fault.

What jobs can you do where you wouldn’t risk dismissal for this?

Most people either work for big private companies or in the public sector, so that’s most jobs you would get sacked from, isn’t it?

Agree with funky

If I lost my job my family would lose our home. No-one would care. If I was twenty years younger or twenty years older I would be much more vocal.

YouAreANoddingDog I think you misunderstand me. My issue is with people criticising women for NOT standing up and telling them that they are letting the side down for not being vocal. I am not talking about you specifically, merely pointing out that telling women that they should just speak out displays a misunderstanding of the fact that so many women cannot weather the storm or face the backlash in a way that others can.

Yes, I am making a choice when deciding that it's not worth losing my job over this. But I am also making a choice when someone holds a gun to my head and orders me to hand over my PIN number and cash-cards. I could refuse. Talking about choice is relatively unhelpful, because they aren't truly free choices.