Gender neutral third spaces: why they won't work

[TimeLady]

Validation, validation, validation.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/12/21/transgender-students-win-apology-told-use-gender-neutral-toilets/

“The security guard said the gender neutral toilets are available. I said ‘Well, I don’t identify as gender neutral, I identify as a man”

.

They need to be any sex not 'gender neutral'. Single sex loos male loos are for any male, no matter how macho or effeminate. Single sex female loos are for any female, regardless of how 'feminine' or butch.

'“It has now been clarified to all concerned that any person can use whichever toilet aligns with their gender identity."'

Bad decision. Seriously, wtf has 'gender identity' got to do with the reasons we have sex segregated loos?

Tedious, self centred egotists.

I want. I shall have. I am more important than anyone else. I don't care about my impact on anyone else so long as I get my way. And nobody can ever say no to me ever.

This is supposed to be somehow some revolution in 'kindness' and 'inclusiveness' and 'progress', as opposed to sociopathic pathology and a total lack of social skills or empathy.

I propose a solution: TRAs and their allies use men's lavatories / men's changing rooms. That way, allies - who have no trouble sharing facilities with men - can put their money where their mouths are. TRAs will get validation from knowing that they are in the presence of women, which is what they want.

And women who do not want to have penises in private spaces reserved for women, will have those private spaces.

It should be renamed "sex-neutral" rather than "gender-neutral".

Or 'mixed sex'

It won't work.

Because it's not about a safe space to pee, or equal recognition or anything else sensible. It's about forcing the world to acknowledge that their personal choice trumps everything and everyone, reality be damned. It's extreme narcissism. Its being in the room marked Men with biological men for that buzz of 'look at me being and doing what I choose'. It's about smashing the boundary in people's faces. For people with APG there's the additional massive kick of women hopefully being in a state of undress with tampons hanging out all around them, and for some women being scared and uncomfortable makes the thrill all the hotter.

Unless the government has the guts to draw the line on this and say gender is everyone's choice, sex is, sex spaces ARE protected by law and gender neutral spaces must be provided for those choosing not to use the space provided for their sex then 99% of the population becomes the toys of the 1%. Collateral damage.

Unless the government has the guts to draw the line on this and say gender is everyone's choice, sex is, sex spaces ARE protected by law and gender neutral spaces must be provided for those choosing not to use the space provided for their sex then 99% of the population becomes the toys of the 1%. Collateral damage.

I agree. Women's groups need to make this line in the sand crystal clear and make it clear to government that that is the only reasonable solution from the perspective of women. And the government needs to stop pandering to this group and ignoring women.

Well, that trans-peaked the Telegraph readers. Well done

One word: unisex. Go on, argue you don't belong have a sex. Geez, this is so tedious. Gender fucking neutral means unisex, moron.

Center Parcs uses unisex changing rooms at the swimming pool. But everyone changes in a private booth anyway so I really don't see why people are making such a fuss over unisex facilities

and haven't the Nordic countries (who supposedly lead the world in women's rights) been using unisex changing rooms/toilets for years now?

The Nordic example is a bit of an urban myth.

Unisex with private booths is fine.

Putting signs up saying mens when what you mean is anyone who identifies as a man is ridiculous.

Are men really supposed be comfortable urinating in front of these women?

There was a Norwegian woman on Twitter saying that she and other women she knows go home to shower & toilet after the gym rather than using the facilities there because of lack of privacy for women. I would be the same. My university accommodation toilets were mixed sex & I used to wait til I was on campus - developed health problems as a result unfortunately.

You might be interested in the rates of assault for women in unisex facilities compared to single sex. There will also be women for varying reasons such as faith, culture, trauma, experience of dv and/or assault (1 in 4 women is it?) who will not be able to use facilities where male bodied people are.

For some women it's really not a meaningless 'fuss'. It's about do we 'include' male born people (who frequently have the choice of male facilities and under the EA an alternative provision if they wish) at the cost of excluding the most vulnerable females from the female facilities who have no alternative at all?

Many years ago I was at Glastonbury and a friend and I bought bikinis (we hadn’t brought them) and queued up for aaaaages to use an outdoor unisex shower.

We finally got to the end of the queue to see a Middle Ages naked man looking at a teenage/young twenty something woman whilst showering next to her.

We didn’t shower.

That just came to mind reading this thread.

Just call them "Any sex, any gender" or "Everyone welcome".

W.C. aka the woke closet.
Will keep them happy as they will have taken a well known abbreviation and made it their very own.
As an added bonus they can enjoy the company of all the woke ‘right on’ folk who want to be in there with them. It will also keep basket cases like JY away from the rest of us.

It's pretty clear that the only way the two transmen in the Telegraph article in the OP would voluntarily use the mixed sex/gender neutral/call-it-what-you-will facilities would be if that was the ONLY option.

Because, primarily, its about validation.

No different to a transitioned colleague insisting on using the opposite sex facilities in an office/academic environment, when they know damn well they would be perfectly safe in the one corresponding to their own sex.

It's not about safety; it's about validation and coercive control. It's about forcing other people to participate in one's delusions.

Validation, validation, validation.
This should be the sub header for every single piece on the subject.
Third spaces would work if certain people stopped being entitled narcissists and respected the needs/boundaries of others, eg members of the opposite sex. Of course, my priority is women and female only spaces being maintained.
This article seems to have rattled a few men. They really don’t want women in the men’s room either...

And delirium that’s a really disturbing story about Glastonbury. Sorry about the total creep in the unisex shower. Shows why women only spaces are so necessary.

They really don’t want women in the men’s room either...

Do you remember the reaction from the men when Man Friday used the Men's Ponds in Hampstead? That was a hoot.

It's not about safety; it's about validation and coercive control.

This

And in schools it gives such power to the pupils over the teachers- to defy, berate and humiliate them.

We really need to get back to reality first and let individuals take responsibility to negotiate their treatment with others on a case by case basis. Laws and policies need to stop these blanket rules which force everyone to act against their own conscience.