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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miranda Yardley calls out the predator

607 replies

Nudibranch · 26/12/2018 02:25

mirandayardley.com/en/jonathan-yaniv-is-a-predator

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Knicknackpaddyflak · 03/01/2019 11:13

No group claiming oppression has over asked permission for those they believe are oppressing them because the wouldnt get it!

Yeah. First you need to define what you mean by 'oppression' - see subjugation and labour demanded of - because how exactly are TRAs being oppressed? Women certainly are. Multiple examples everywhere you look, and you can find specific examples of subjugation and demanded labour from women all over the heart of transactivism.

Second: oppressed groups seek freedom for themselves on equal terms with their subjugators. (See above.) Not to forcibly redefine the other group, colonise it, remove the language, rights, culture and identity for their own purposes. You're talking about colonialism, not freedom fighting. Right down to: 'this is all for your own good', 'we know better' and 'it'll be better for us everyone when you don't use that silly indigenous language and hold those silly old fashioned beliefs and raise children in these outdated ways and do it our way instead'.

Always male led movements. Always based on a whole lot of political power, arrogance, lack of empathy and chasing money.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 03/01/2019 11:15

Thanks R0, I'll read that one.

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2019 11:20

Women didnt ask men's permission when the suffragette movement began. Rosa Parks didnt ask permission from a white person when she made a stand over racial segregation. No group claiming oppression has over asked permission for those they believe are oppressing them because the wouldnt get it!

No, the GOVERNMENT had a responsibility to consult women, not the trans lobby.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/01/2019 11:22

The word "believe" is doing an awful lot of work in that sentence.

Some people believe that the earth is flat. They are wrong.

Ereshkigal · 03/01/2019 11:25

There is nothing to suggest that gender dysphoric men commit crime, sexual or otherwise, at a rate less than any other man.

And nothing to suggest the opposite!

Bit unfair to assume guilt in the absence of evidence.

No, they are men. So without proof to the contrary, we have no reason to believe the rate of this subset of men would be different to any other. The onus is on the person who makes an extraordinary claim. So, you.

R0wantrees · 03/01/2019 11:33

"Women were not consulted for the 2004 GRA"

This seems to be an often used argument but one I dont think is a good one to use. Women didnt ask men's permission when the suffragette movement began. Rosa Parks didnt ask permission from a white person when she made a stand over racial segregation. No group claiming oppression has over asked permission for those they believe are oppressing them because the wouldnt get it!

Where to start....?

Please stop appropriating women's rights activism against oppression to use against women, seeking to assert their hard-earned rights and maintain Safeguarding frameworks.

Hansard transcripts from the 2004 GRA debate are important reading:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1049289194370002945.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3388967-Illuminating-Twitter-thread-about-the-origins-of-the-Gender-Recognition-Act?

userschmoozer · 03/01/2019 11:42

Women are not oppressing trans people; not by our biology, not by needing or wanting single sex spaces and services, not by having anything that is for women.

Women are fighting for the right for autonomy, as we have been for decades. As we apparently always will be because the very idea is so offensive to the other 50% of the population.

Scientistagainsttranscult · 03/01/2019 11:56

Userschmoozer it's unbelievable isn't it. Why can't women just say no to men when they're our rights and that be that. I've had many a "well you have unisex at home, shower naked, sleep naked next to your other half" as if that justifies it. What next, if you have sex it justifies any man to have sex with you? They want to regress us back and people are letting them. The apologists tend to be TRAs in disguise so just ignore their opinions.

R0wantrees · 03/01/2019 12:12

No, the GOVERNMENT had a responsibility to consult women, not the trans lobby.

See also with regards the more recent 2016 Women's & Equalities report as discussed in Janice Turner's interview with Maria Miller MP:

(extract)

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency." (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

Professor Kathleen Stock's analysis of the serious flaws in the inquiry and report in speech at House of Lords Oct 10th 2018
(extract)
"As I hope is clear to everyone by now — thanks to campaigns like that of A Woman’s Place and Fair Play for Women — when it comes to developing public policy around legally changing sex, there are several sets of interests at stake, and not just one.

To put it in a nutshell: if you’re going to make it very easy for members of the biological male sex, socialised as men, to get the word ‘female’ written on their birth certificates, you are going to get at least two problems, simply put:

· more opportunities for some males to harass females, because now males can be more easily legally treated as females, and so have greater access to females.

and

· an undermining of the positive actions which have historically promoted equality of opportunity for females; because now some males can ‘self-identify as females’ and so get access to these opportunities (all-women shortlists being the obvious example).

You are also going to get a lot of confusion for questioning, gender-non-conforming, children, working out who they are in a world in which ‘changing sex’ is now apparently easy.

So the question for all of us is: how to balance these competing interests?

I want to talk about how, in attempting to answer that question, public organisations are being misleadingly advised, sometimes with harmful results." (continues)

medium.com/@kathleenstock/womens-place-talk-full-text-house-of-lords-oct-10th-2018-b1f3d70c4559

birdsdestiny · 03/01/2019 12:14

In my view Maria Miller is backtracking as fast as she can whilst trying not to draw attention to what she is doing.

R0wantrees · 03/01/2019 12:34

In my view Maria Miller is backtracking as fast as she can whilst trying not to draw attention to what she is doing.

'Today's Independent: 'Government 'mishandling' trans rights reform by failing to tackle health inequalities, former Tory minister says'
(extract)
"A former Conservative cabinet minister has accused the government of “mishandling” reforms needed to improve the health and quality of life of trans people.

Maria Miller, the chair of the commons women and equalities committee – and equalities minister under David Cameron, said basic healthcare “taken for granted” by the public is out of reach to trans people.

This is down to the government’s failure to act on recommendations made by her committee three years ago, the MP for Basingstoke said.

The committee is due to publish a new report on the care of LGBT+ people in the coming weeks but Ms Miller has already warned services are “going backwards quickly” – with trans people among the worst affected." (continues)

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/trans-rights-reform-lgbt-gender-recognition-conservatives-maria-miller-theresa-may-a8707691.html

HuffPost:
'Senior Tory Maria Miller Says Transgender Issues 'Mishandled' By Government
Ex-minister says self-ID reform "not as important" as basic healthcare.'
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/transgender-issues-mishandled-by-government_uk_5c2c9408e4b05c88b70433ca

thread re recent BBC segment about provision of fertility services for people who are transgender:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3465629-the-bbc-have-just-peak-transed-the-nation

Miranda Yardley calls out the predator
Bowlofbabelfish · 03/01/2019 12:46

basic healthcare “taken for granted” by the public is out of reach to trans people.

What healthcare? Because I read this as basic services - GP access, dental care access etc. If trans people are genuinely unable to obtain basic care (such as getting a GP appointment to discuss a regular issue) then that’s not ok.

But I can’t see that as happening. So what does ‘basic healthcare’ mean in this context.

I am continually frustrated at the toothlessness of the media here - when someone makes a statement like that, you clarify and query, Paxman style if needed.

“Basic healthcare? Can you say what you mean by that?”

You don’t let it go. Because that then feeds the rhetorical technique they use, which is to drop a statement like thatvin as if it is gospel truth then build the argument from there. Question the foundation of the argument - this is surely basic journalism/interviewer 101.

R0wantrees · 03/01/2019 12:46

new thread started to prevent derail of this important one:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3468135-Maria-Miller-MP-repositioning-or-U-turn-re-Transgender-Equality-Report-and-GRA-self-id-reforms

starcrossedseahorse · 03/01/2019 12:48

Already a couple of threads discussing this.

givenupcaring · 03/01/2019 13:16

*What healthcare? Because I read this as basic services - GP access, dental care access etc. If trans people are genuinely unable to obtain basic care (such as getting a GP appointment to discuss a regular issue) then that’s not ok.

But I can’t see that as happening. So what does ‘basic healthcare’ mean in this context.*

There is only one area from my knowledge where there is a major problem and that is in breast screening.

Those who transition hormonally develop breasts (obviously!) and with it comes the same risk of developing breast cancer as natal women however currently the NHS does not offer to trans.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/01/2019 13:58

Given that breast cancer is impacted by estrogen I'm guessing that taking massive doses of it is the reason transwomen are at an elevated risk of breast cancer compared to other males and thus may benefit from screening, rather than them needing screening because they have developed more visible breast tissue.

By the logic givenup seems to be applying women with large breasts would need lots and lots of screening and women with very small breasts wouldn't be much at risk. Which I'm fairly sure is not the case.

Scientistagainsttranscult · 03/01/2019 14:25

There are many types of breast cancer and their natural estrogen receptors are a little different than females so they're more at risk than men who don't have HRT but not women. Another common appropriation for womens services I'm afraid. Obesity causes increased estrogen release.

R0wantrees · 03/01/2019 14:41

Those who transition hormonally develop breasts (obviously!) and with it comes the same risk of developing breast cancer as natal women

Males who take cross sex hormones do not develop the same breast structures as females. Breast Cancers in women (adult human females) are complex and not one type.

Males (who do not identify as transgender) can also develop breast cancer.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/breast-cancer-in-men/

The long term health consequences for people who as a consequence of being transgender have surgical and long term medical interventions are not yet realised. It seems likely that there will be some health implications specific to individual's sex and some of these may be anticipated. There is an urgent need for studies in this area.

It serves nobody well to make simplistic statements without evidence nor is it appropriate conflate the realities of women who have breast cancer with males.

AngryAttackKittens · 03/01/2019 20:01

It's almost as if the women concerned about TRA overreach know more about how all this works medically than those who're not concerned...

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2019 20:11

TRAs: We want to remove medical gatekeeping for medical transistion.
Also TRAs: We aren't getting the healthcare we think we should be getting that may or may not be related to taking hormones, because we don't think we should be studied for the long term effects of hormones.

TRAs: We want to be treated like women
Also TRAs: We don't want to be treated like women when it comes to healthcare. We want priority.

TRAs: We should get equal access to Fertility Care on the NHS as women
Also TRAs: We think we should get hair removal treatment and breast implants on the NHS because it is important to our feminity, unlike women who can't get it.

Yeah whatever.

AspieAndProud · 03/01/2019 20:28

If you want to have the Full Woman Experience surely being on a medical waiting list as long as possible will make it feel more authentic?

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 03/01/2019 20:48

The Action for Trans Health manifesto included their being able to learn to operate on each other.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 04/01/2019 08:30

The Action for Trans Health manifesto included their being able to learn to operate on each other.

SIgh. To misquote Winston Churchill: never has such stupidity been shared by so few.

RedToothBrush · 04/01/2019 09:28

Does that include learning to operate on children without moral and ethical oversight?