Third Spaces

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

As far as I can make out, third spaces would be a way to:

• preserve sex segregated spaces for women who wanted to use them
• allow trans people to use a mixed sex space (that could have individual cubicles) which would afford them privacy and also prevent them from being outed as it would be a mixed sex space rather than a trans space
• prevent provision for people with disabilities to remain unimpinged.

Does this seem a suitable solution for loos/changing rooms?

I know there are wider issues but on this specific one, I think this would work for everyone and respects everyone's needs. Leaving aside those who will want to access women's spaces for validation, am I missing any legitimate concerns about third spaces?

I cant see the problem pain but every day is a school day on MN so im willing to learm

Third spaces would also help all the people who identify as non-binary, whether they are male or female in terms of sex they don't want to use the facilities for that sex or for the other.

Trans men may feel uncomfortable in the female toilets and also unsafe in the male ones, so again a third space would be good for them.

There are no arguments I can see against third spaces except cost. This is assuming that we do not lose male and female facilities. I don't want to lose female and male only faculties, I want additional facilities for anyone.

The problem is a Third space isn't wanted.

Of course it's not wanted, they want to continue the binary. On their terms.

I talked through all of this with a friend who has been oblivious but us the most sensible and 'right on' person I know. Her daughter (I now know) is very gender non conforming (didn't know that's what it was called a few years ago!) and most of her friends at school were lesbians (we're in our 40s)

Her logical conclusion, weighing up everything, was 3rd spaces please. Now.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost I think a third space isn't wanted by some but it is by others.

My child's school has individual toilets opening onto a corridor. I think these spaces are going to become more common. I'd like to see these spaces come into existence but without losing single sex provision.

Its a great idea but CaptainKirksSpookyghost is right (great user name btw). The ones leading this movement don't want a third space they want into women's spaces, for validation, kicks etc.
A third space just wouldn't suit

Yes, I understand that the lack of validation conferred by third spaces is a problem for some people. I want to know if there are other objections as I'm happy to disregard validation-driven ones.

This is, in part, my preparation for some fun conversations at Christmas so I'd like to have fully thought of all angles!

I agree that the only negative is cost

But that's obviously not a reason to NOT do it

The thing is, It has to be 3 spaces.

A friend was a victim of voyeurism at a public swimming pool with mixed changing spaces. Looked under the cubicle while she was changing. Was eventually caught and prosecuted as had done before. I commented to her mum, 'why the hell aren't they floor to ceiling?' and she said 'because there's a risk of people going in for quickies.' Which I honestly hadn't thought of. Friend can't swim there alone now.

Poise posted recently pics of the inclusive changing spaces in a shop with about a foot of space beneath the door.

WAGs are loosing their rights.

I think it would be a good way forward and it's something I think people coming into this debate for the first time would also be behind as I can't see any legitimate objections to it. If they got pushback from TRAs, well, they could make their own minds up about what the motivation behind gaining entry to women's spaces is.

To clarify, the risk of the cubicles being used for sex is why mixed spaces have in the past beeb designed with large gaps under the doors.

Certainly the gender neutral toilets at work are all floor to ceiling off a corridor. Fairly new building.,

My sister who is pro self id and who was raped a few years ago says she is terrified of 3rd spaces. She says she is worried a man could push her into a cubicle and rape her without anyone knowing. Conversely I (who has also been raped) am terrified of the male sex in my female only space for the same reason. Not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome.

I can see why your sister would not want all unisex but I don't understand why she thinks 3rd spaces would be a problem- she would be able to use the female- only space.

But wouldn't your sister be able to use the women's bathrooms? She wouldn't need to use the third space (unless your sister is a trans woman?)

So in an ideal situation there would be:

Women's loos/spaces - just women.
Men's loos/spaces - just me
Third spaces - trans people/men and women who want to use a mixed sex space. These would have cubicles to ensure privacy.

Everyone could have a suitable, private space and no one would be outed and

Spartacus I am inclined to agree but if a third space could be introduced then I do think that many transpeople would happily use them. It would have the happy outcome of potentially keeping transmen safer and they are a group we seldom hear from.

The vile male predators who still try to push to get in the women's loos and ignore our boundaries would become instantly identifiable and would get no sympathy because there is a space set aside for them.

I think it could work.

I understand that perspective spartacus but given that the equality act allows for people embarking on the GRC process to use provision of the opposite sex, this seems a good compromise to accommodate everyone. More importantly, it's a way to retain women only spaces.

Selling it to the likes of Madigan et al who just want female adulation and validation will be the hard part. They care nothing for our boundaries or safety and just want in to our spaces regardless of who else has to then be allowed in.

Not going to happen. It’s about validation, not safety. Anything less than full access to women’s spaces is an admission TWANW.

Aspie I think that you are correct.

I already support the changing places campaign and agree it's a valuable thing to fight for.

I'm not necessarily interested in selling it to LM and co, more in establishing whether there are any other concerns apart from validation that would render third spaces unusable. If there aren't, then any rejection of third spaces clearly shows what people are really after.

I don't think it will be accepted. But if people on the street who don't know anything about what's happening realise that third spaces are workable but rejected purely because it doesn't provide validation/an opportunity to enter women's spaces, I think that'll help them to see the dynamics of what's really going on and that it isn't necessarily about a poor oppressed dysphoric minority who are being made to share spaces with men because we're transphobic.

Again, I know it's not my issue to solve but I'm coming at it from the perspective of using this to highlight the motivations of people who want access to women's spaces. And that will hopefully help other people to see why sex segregated spaces are valuable and worth fighting for.

I think third spaces make all kind of sense.

I know there has been some pushback on this from disabled people, but i think in many cases this will mean the accessible toilets/ changing etc.. - already you see many toilets with the sign 'not all disabilities are visible' etc... There might also be unisex, single occupancy spaces in addition to wheelchair accessible cubicles (+ baby changing etc...) - it all depends on the size of the building/number of users.

I don't think can specify for every situation but it is rather you need to have facilities so that: 1) women have privacy 2) men have privacy 3) people who don't feel comfortable in single sex space of their own sex have privacy 4) a space that disabled people can access.

I guess in places like small pubs and restaurants where they currently have 2 single occupancy toilets- one male and one female, this might need to change to 2 unisex, rather than require them to have 3 separate rooms, but I don't think unisex cubicle toilets are a good idea (especially where they have the 'gents' and 'unisex' option )

Regarding the lack of validation. What about biological women who want to be respected as biological women. Where is their validation? At the bottom of the list as always?