Third Spaces

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

As far as I can make out, third spaces would be a way to:

• preserve sex segregated spaces for women who wanted to use them
• allow trans people to use a mixed sex space (that could have individual cubicles) which would afford them privacy and also prevent them from being outed as it would be a mixed sex space rather than a trans space
• prevent provision for people with disabilities to remain unimpinged.

Does this seem a suitable solution for loos/changing rooms?

I know there are wider issues but on this specific one, I think this would work for everyone and respects everyone's needs. Leaving aside those who will want to access women's spaces for validation, am I missing any legitimate concerns about third spaces?

Third space is the only practical solution

Agreed but it only works if sex is recognised and accepted.

Third spaces work well for women but TRAs don't care about that.
Nothing less than full access to women will satisfy them, either through mixed sex spaces or access to their chosen space.

One of the key points of moving towards third spaces for me is that some people believe TWAW and some people don't. It is completely reasonable belief for a person to believe that a TW is a man. It's a commonly held belief of long history and scientific evidence. If a woman holds the belief that a TW is male, it is unreasonable to expect them to be willing to accept them doing things that other males are not accepted in.

This a country that accepts different beliefs, I'm happy to respect someone's chosen ideology, but not to be compelled to adopt it. We don't have forced beliefs here. Laws do not compel people to follow any one belief or ideology or to adhere to something they don't believe in.

So mixed gender spaces respect those beliefs and include them, and single sex spaces limited to biological sex respects those beliefs too. It's hard to argue this is not a reasonable standpoint.

So mixed gender spaces respect those beliefs

Mixed sex spaces?

Biological sex is not a belief system. It is scientific fact.

In order for it not to be a form of gaslighting, it would need to be:

Women
Men
Mixed sex

It could be female, male, mixed sex & this would be more accurate.

star I agree with you. But in this new batshit political world, I see more hope in insisting in my right to believe in reality and scientific fact - and a TRA would argue (endlessly) that other scientific fact has taken over - than in wasting more time debating lunacy.

People are free to believe they have fairies at the bottom of the garden, or that there are multiple sexes or anything else they like. I am equally legally free to believe in a different reality and to not have to participate in and perform a belief I do not hold.

Call the third space the inclusive space, then everyone is happy.

Yes I know it's actually a crap title and I can argue alllll the reasons why it's rubbish and gaslighting but it would sell the idea to the woke. Be interesting to actually see how many handmaidens would only ever use that space or if they'd sometimes choose the women's.

I like it neuro

If they can make the third spaces big enough to get a pram in, that would be great too (obviously, this will depend on the buildings use - not necessary in a nightclub!)

I remember being a new mum (more than 18 years ago) and peeing with a cubicle door open, so that I didn’t have to lose sight of my baby.

Third spaces very much need to be an additional option, and not encroach on disabled spaces, nor replace single sex provision.
Yes, it’s an inconvenient and expensive option, but it can be phased in through a number of years.

I’m sure proposals women’s loos were originally shouted down as too expensive and inconvenient too.

They can call it the ‘everyone except those pesky terfs’ space if it means we get to keep the ladies for women and girls only!

Why provision of third spaces won't work on its own:
Telegraph yesterday:
'Transgender students win apology after being told to use 'gender neutral' toilets instead of the men's
A university was forced to apologise to transgender students after they were told to use the “gender neutral” toilets instead of the men’s.'
(extract)

"Two Masters students at Canterbury Christ Church University (CCCU) were confronted by a security guard after using the men’s toilets at the student union building on campus.

Toby George, 21, who is studying Criminal Justice and is Tilbert Wilson, 24, who is taking Early Childhood Studies, are both biologically women but identify as men.

After the pair emerged from the men's toilets, the security guard asked them to present their identification cards. They were also asked why they had not used the “gender neutral” toilets in the building next door.

“The security guard said the gender neutral toilets are available. I said ‘Well, I don’t identify as gender neutral, I identify as a man’,” said Toby George, who is the student union’s LGBTQ+ officer and a trainee special constable. " (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/12/21/transgender-students-win-apology-told-use-gender-neutral-toilets/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Wow Tweedledee and Tweedledum made a stand there didn’t they- the security guard in a student union building. Slow hand clap.
Try the real world next time.

It will though no doubt be used as precedent in NUS buildings and also universities.

Always interesting to note how often the policy/ legals precedents are set by transmen but which will impact women's right to safety, privacy and dignity from males both those who identify as transwomen/women/females and those who may claim to in order to gain access to women's intimate spaces & services.

Tbh, as the fixation is being and acting the sex the desire is to be, many TW and TM will ignore third spaces. We've had TW on these boards explain that women's discomfort with this is less important than their need to do what they want to do around their identity.

It's hard to see how the government will ever get this wretched genie back in the bottle, as they will not find the guts to separate sex and protect it properly. Vulnerable women will end up unable to use women's spaces, they will be excluded, and I honestly don't know how we deal with that. Other than start the Victorian campaign over again from scratch to have separate provision for (whatever we're allowed to call biological women this week).

I'd really like five minutes in the HoC with the utter twats waving this through, I have never been so angry with their utter stupidity and cowardice n dealing with this bunch of selfish arses.