A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

Exclusive: The woman was told that "no men are allowed" in the women's changing room after gym staff received a complaint from another member.

www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/puregym-trans-woman-changing-room

How long until the backlash forces a change in policy do you think?

Hopefully those transsexuals and seeking 'common cause' with women, will increasingly recognise the significant difference and conflict of rights between a male, 'deciding as a personal process to change their gender identity' and women who as 'adult human females' are such from the point of their conception.

Personally I absolutely do recognise the difference but I also see a big difference between a fetishistic male and a transsexual dysphoric person.

The TRAs have screwed over the TS minority. The honour system worked in the past - women were kind enough to allow TS people into their spaces because typically they recognised them as respectful people who simply wanted to get on with changing / going to the toilet in privacy. We now have a situation where anyone can call themselves TG and walk into a womens space and show off their "lady penis" and sexualise the other people in the room. That is disgusting and revolting and an act of dominance.

The TRAs and them alone have created the situation we find ourselves in.
I am affected on a daily basis by the fact that where once I was tolerated indeed at times accepted I am now seen as a predator and a pervert just be my mere existance. I absolutely do share a common cause with women on probably 95% of where we find ourselves.

The problem comes with the fact that what women are saying (and its perfectly understandable) is that "It used to be OK to have TS people in our spaces but now there is a 99% chance that a biological male is there for the wrong reason we have to exclude all biological males.". Its understandable and its not womens fault - its what I said before that the TRA crowd have screwed me over because I am forced into a position of putting myself at risk, making other people feel unsafe and doing without.

As a hypothetical question, there will be other males who experience frequent sexual, verbal and physical abuse by some men in some single sex spaces. Should they also be accorded the safety of using female single sex spaces?

Thats a difficult question to answer and I can only speak from my own perspective.

Before I was fully transitioned I was a gay man - dont ask me how but on occassion it was recognised that I was gay and to this day I dont know how ! As a result I would occassionally get abuse for that reason. However noone ever said I didnt belong there.

As transitioner however men see me as a women. Perhaps I threaten their masculanity by being there I dont know but I am not welcome and that is not on occassion that is everytime. My presence isnt accepted. Of course women see me as a man. Truth be told I see myself as neither; I just know that I cannot live with being seen as a man even though biologically I will never be a woman.

There is something very disconcerting Im told when a body has both male and female characteristics. Women ignore it ; often men have a massive issue with it either sexual arousal or threatened by it.

The TRAs have screwed over the TS minority. The honour system worked in the past - women were kind enough to allow TS people into their spaces because typically they recognised them as respectful people who simply wanted to get on with changing / going to the toilet in privacy. We now have a situation where anyone can call themselves TG and walk into a womens space and show off their "lady penis" and sexualise the other people in the room. That is disgusting and revolting and an act of dominance.

That some prominant trans rights activists (TRAs) who are also transsexual have been central to the current situation has been discussed & established repeatedly at some length recently.

It isn't possible to draw the separation points that you want to although I recognise (& I think understand) why it seems tempting.

That significant harm is being felt by some transsexuals due to the actions of those trans rights activists who have been affecting massive (largely unnoticed & unchecked) societal change is certainly true.

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448102-why-my-transgender-son-dosent-want-self-id

Men are not accepting at all of TS identity.

That's a problem for men - not women - to deal with.

I also see a big difference between a fetishistic male and a transsexual dysphoric person.

Well, on first sight? No vulnerable woman can know that until it is too late.

And in any case, what's the difference between them if neither recognise women's consent as applying to them and both display typical male pattern behaviour?

From the perspective of a woman in a woman-only space, the answer is none.

I'll repeat: this thread is about women's needs. If you are a male person and all you can think of to do is return the topic to yourself, yourself, yourself, you should reflect.

Not whats happening. I am part of a discussion and once again you shut me down with the "youre not a woman so shut up".

To tell me that I am exhibiting male pattern behaviour when you are well aware I am extremely dysphoric is hugely triggering to me and it simply isnt true.

I post sincerely and honestly to a debate.

I think both TS and TS male people have pushed the 'honour system'.

There's a world of difference between being ok with a male transperson in the toilet in Debenhams, and expecting to be a communal changing room.

The honour system worked in the past

You've seen dozens of women tell you that it never worked for them and that they never consented. So it didn't work for them, did it?

To tell me that I am exhibiting male pattern behaviour when you are well aware I am extremely dysphoric is hugely triggering to me and it simply isnt true.

I'm sorry about that but, as I've said, if you repeatedly centre topics on yourself and repeat MRA talking points such as NAMALT as you did earlier on the thread, I'm going to take issue with you. Nobody's told you to shut up, including me. I'm just objecting to things you say. Pretending otherwise, again, is DARVO.

As a hypothetical question, there will be other males who experience frequent sexual, verbal and physical abuse by some men in some single sex spaces. Should they also be accorded the safety of using female single sex spaces?

Thats a difficult question to answer and I can only speak from my own perspective.

Its a hypothetical question, should they ?

Before I was fully transitioned I was a gay man - dont ask me how but on occassion it was recognised that I was gay and to this day I dont know how ! As a result I would occassionally get abuse for that reason

You would have been getting abuse because of some men's homophobia.
citing the cause is imprtant. Its not because a man is gay that leads to assault, its because of homophobia and male-violence not being challenged and prosecuted sufficiently.

In some single-sex places some men's homophobia, racism etc and unchecked male-pattern violence will result in verbal, physical and/or sexual abuse against other males.

Not whats happening. I am part of a discussion and once again you shut me down with the "youre not a woman so shut up"...To tell me that I am exhibiting male pattern behaviour when you are well aware I am extremely dysphoric is hugely triggering to me and it simply isnt true...I post sincerely and honestly to a debate.

How can you debate if you are asking for special dispensation for being dysphoric?

The women in the changing rooms don't get to debate. It was assumed that they approved an honour system - nobody asked them.

Now it is being taken advantage of, and by activists who seem more than happy with their penises, and we are saying 'no'.

Men being intolerant isn’t a woman’s issue here.

I'm sorry about that but, as I've said, if you repeatedly centre topics on yourself and repeat MRA talking points such as NAMALT as you did earlier on the thread, I'm going to take issue with you.

All I have ever done is give an honest opinion based on what I have seen and experienced.

You have misquoted what I said earlier regarding NAMALT; I spoke in the context of gender stereotyping in a wider context and the impact on stereotyping on current transgender identity.

I am yet to see what is so bad about what I have posted. Im know you dont agree with it but its still a valid viewpoint on the current situation. The posts where R0wantree and I both talked about the Quality Act and its application I actually felt very useful; I welcome anyone who read them to tell me they disagree.

IN MY OPINION you see me in a certain way and therefore attribute my actions to male privilege and male behaviours. I'm sorry but you don't know me and if you did you would now that that is not be and I have never been a party to male privilege.

Not whats happening. I am part of a discussion and once again you shut me down with the "youre not a woman so shut up".

To tell me that I am exhibiting male pattern behaviour when you are well aware I am extremely dysphoric is hugely triggering to me and it simply isnt true.

cantgetridofthekids
The first accusation is not accurate and not fair.

Male-pattern controlling behaviour is a recognised & important specific description. It is an evidenced-based descriptor.

FWR threads discussing why women need single sex spaces cannot possibly be held resonsible for ensuring someone's dysphoria is not triggered.

Just as discussion about parenting cannot be responsible for triggering a woman's distress about being infertile.

The guidelines are there to ensure civilised discussion not to prohibit it being robust.
There is an onus on us all to understand what that means.

Men being intolerant isn’t a woman’s issue here.

I never said that it was. On more than one occasion I give an honest answer from my point of view and the only reply is "its not a womans issue".

Is there not a bit of a conflict here between being told "women werent consulted" and "its not a womans issue ?" ?

So far today I have talked about my concerns over gender stereotyping, spoke against penises in changing rooms, spoke against mermaids, talked about my own experiences, discussed the EA and that way it is being manipulated. What exactly is so unreasonable about what I have said ?

All I have ever done is give an honest opinion based on what I have seen and experienced.

This is true, but in doing so you are often derailing and sometimes dominating discussion intended to be about women's needs for privacy or safety.

You may not be aware of this.

It isn't just about you and your needs.
These are important discussions.

This is true, but in doing so you are often derailing and sometimes dominating discussion intended to be about women's needs for privacy or safety.

For that I apologise if that is the case. It is certainly not my intention.

So far today I have talked about my concerns over gender stereotyping, spoke against penises in changing rooms, spoke against mermaids, talked about my own experiences, discussed the EA and that way it is being manipulated. What exactly is so unreasonable about what I have said ?

Discussion is about listening too.

It is a 'male-pattern behaviour' to speak more, explain unneccessarily etc (hence the often used term 'mansplaing')

This doesn't mean all males do this nor that there aren't also some women who converse similarly.

The sex-based patterns of turn-taking, conversational dominance, linguistic differnces etc are well established and recognised.

It is accepted as being due to socialisation, not chromosones.

can't Sorry, I have cross posted there.

I would have thought that the crime of indecent exposure is being committed by male bodied people in female changing rooms.

I experience men’s use of female only spaces as an act of sexual domination. It reminds me of all those lovely guys who exposed themselves to me as a child. As a child I never dared complain, as an adult I will.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/66

I experience men’s use of female only spaces as an act of sexual domination. It reminds me of all those lovely guys who exposed themselves to me as a child. As a child I never dared complain, as an adult I will.

There was a thread a while ago about how many women had as girls had adult men expose themselves.

Its not recognised how frequent this domination and abuse is or the consequences for girls.

Have emailed Puregym to commend them.

So have I, little.

Cantgetridofthekids I feel for you for the abuse you get from men, however, I still feel your use of female spaces is an act of dominance. You want to present as a woman, you know men might abuse you therefore you need to use the women's space. You've put your need to present as a woman ahead of women's needs to have their own space. Your desires are dominant in your mind. I wrote whatever those needs may be for a reason. Some reasons are malicious, some are not. It is still an act of dominance to put your male body in a women only space even if you really really don't want to go in the mens because they probably will be horrible to you. You've decided your needs trump ours.