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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reliable information/statistics about trans issues

28 replies

itsalwaysthequietones · 18/12/2018 02:26

Hello,

Posting with some trepidation and appreciate this is a very contentious/divisive issue and that the MN feminist forum has come under some fire about this recently. But here goes, I've found myself increasingly torn recently when it comes to the issue of transgender rights. In a nutshell, I'm a fairly liberal type and on the whole if there is a debate I'm on the side of the marginalised group so my instinct has always been to support transgender rights. However, some of the stuff I've read recently has raised alarm bells, particularly in the context of women's sport and the treatment of transgender children and young people.

The latter is more personal to me so I'll tackle that one specifically. I have a DD who is non-gender-conforming in that she has always refused dresses from a very young age, worn 'boys' clothes, will only have short hair, has mannerisms/habits/interests that are more typically associated with boys than girls. She will be 9 in February. She has never, however, suggested that she feels like a boy. I'm immensely proud of her and the fact that she doesn't, yet, feel the need to conform to anything. Some of the discussion around gender makes me anxious that we as a society find it increasingly difficult to accept women or men who don't want to act or dress the way that we feel they should i.e. 'if you are interested in boy stuff you must have been assigned the wrong gender at birth, this is a medical issue and there is something that can be done about it'. Clearly I'm over-simplifying a bit but that does seem to be an underlying assumption in some of what I've read. As a separate issue, I do also have concerns about the threat to single sex safe spaces. And I suppose I mean specifically spaces that have, until now, been female spaces.

But, (and it is a big but), I freely admit to being very ill-informed about all this and I don't want to jump on any bandwagon without having done some proper research. So, although I'm not starting from an entirely neutral position, I am open to changing my mind and I'm looking for some good, clear, objective resources if such things exist. I guess many would say that this is not the place to come for objective resources but I do trust you lot to signpost and then let me make up my own mind.

In particular I'm interested in the following:

  • the percentage of transgender people who were born as men and now identify as women by comparison with those who were born as women and now identify as men.
  • the difference between having gender dysphoria and being transgender (and how much of an overlap there is)
  • the percentage of children and young people who have temporary gender dysphoria i.e. they have a period of time identifying as a gender that is not their birth gender but then revert to their birth gender as adults

Then, specifically, on transgender women in sports, what are the guidelines:

  • do you have to have had gender realignment surgery in order to compete as a woman (if you were born a man) or vice versa?
  • do you have to have lived as a woman (if you were born a man) or vice versa for a specific period of time in order to compete in that gender group? And if so, what is the period of time?
  • If someone has transitioned to being a woman with surgery, hormone therapy, lived as a woman for years etc how big, really, is the competitive advantage (bearing in mind the fact that athletes born as women come in all shapes and sizes and with bodies that are more or less suited to athletic activity etc)?

I've googled the above obviously but there is a hell of a lot out there and I thought someone more up on this would probably be able to direct me, faster, to accurate information.

Thanks in advance for your input

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Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 03:25

Welcome. This IS the place to come - intelligent and thoughtful discussions around genuine concerns. Have a snuffle in this thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

It's a great place for an intro into our concerns. Lots of links from reliable sources. Would love to hear back from you after you have had a read. Smile

Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 03:39

Here is a link to concerns around Mermaids, a charity who visit schools. (Your daughter sounds awesome btw).

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/26/lobby-groups-like-mermaids-dictate-policy-discourse-around-gender-identity-kids-lose/

Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 03:56

Oh, and this excellent site was nominated for the John Maddox science award. It's a great starting place

www.transgendertrend.com/#

Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 04:00

Lol I wonder if you are an Antipodean like me? A lot of awesome women on here are from the UK (I think), so you will get more replies when they are awake. Smile

Notevenmyrealname · 18/12/2018 04:11

itsalwaysthequietones

You sound just like me as I’m still getting to grips with a lot of these issues. I believe there was some research planned on detransitioning teens but it was shut down before it started in case it was perceived as transphobic which seems crazy.

Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 04:32

Yup. I had no idea until a few weeks ago. So much research has been shut down. #nodebate is actually one of TRA's main catch phrases. Fun fact: A U.K. government inquiry is underway to investigate why there's an over 4,000 percent increase in children seeking to "transition" to the opposite sex. (80percent are female, of whom 30 percent are on the autism spectrum). Nothing to see here folks....
The awesome professor Michelle Moore
m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ATNRbJW_JI8

itsalwaysthequietones · 18/12/2018 04:49

What a great start. Thank you for all your posts! I hadn’t expected to hear for a while because I thought the majority of site users would be asleep as you say yeahnahyeah I’m a Brit living in Asia. I had just picked up on Mermaids (one of the things that raised the alarm bells actually) but only read one article. Will get stuck in now.

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Bluestockings35 · 18/12/2018 06:09

Unfortunately this isn’t really the place to come for accurate or impartial information on this issue. There are too many people with a strong anti-trans agenda here. I’m both a radical feminist and deeply uncomfortable with the way some people on here talk about trans issues. I would suggest you look at Davina Cooper, Rosa Freedman and Sally Hines academic work. They are all respected feminist academics who have very different views on the issue. Avoid the populist, fear-mongering, ‘trans people are out to eliminate women’s spaces/sports/identity’ or ‘trans people want to make all children trans’ sources you’ll get referred to from this group. Sadly, for a supposedly feminist group, I don’t see much in the way of feminist values here.

Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 06:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Materialist · 18/12/2018 06:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bluestockings35 · 18/12/2018 06:56

If you want the full picture you can’t only read the work of those you agree with. And yes, I am a radical feminist and a lesbian to boot. Most of the people whose work you’re discussing - on both sides of this debate - I know personally and none of them are the cartoon characters that people on here (and yes trans activists too) make them out to be. They are very qualified, serious, academics and feminists and should be read, not caricatured.

It’s interesting that my feminist identity is being questioned by someone who would rather ally themselves with men like Piers Morgan and Graham Lineham than actually read an academic text by another feminist.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 18/12/2018 07:03

Not everyone wants academic feminist work as a jumping off point.

I study the issues at university and I am happy to struggle through a bit of Nancy Fraser or Stevi Jackson but as a general rule I find the conversations on here more relatable and therefore thought-provoking.

The academy and the more mainstream conversations feed off each other as they should but the questions in the op are very practical and I don't know if Sally Hines has addressed them in an accessible way in her work for eg.

Pennydrew142 · 18/12/2018 07:17

It’s interesting that my feminist identity is being questioned by someone who would rather ally themselves with men like Piers Morgan and Graham Lineham than actually read an academic text by another feminist.

🙄 you’re so silly.

Pennydrew142 · 18/12/2018 07:18

The Michelle Moore link above is very good.

TimeLady · 18/12/2018 07:28

There's a lot of money sloshing around for pro-transgender projects, in academia and charities, so don't underestimate the influence of that in the results those involved produce. Wink

Yeahnahyeah · 18/12/2018 07:33

Yeah Bluestockings I did request my post be removed, still waiting. I was being a tad petulant.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 18/12/2018 07:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/12/2018 08:12

If you want the full picture you can’t only read the work of those you agree with

This^ It's really important that you read the output from both "sides". Read carefully, and critically and come to your own conclusions.

itsalwaysthequietones · 18/12/2018 08:22

Out and about so not able to respond properly until later but thanks to all of you who’ve taken the time to post and suggest resources

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cantgetridofthekids · 18/12/2018 08:23

My personal advice would be to continue to allow your daughter to be herself and let her go against gender stereotypes but I wouldn't recommend any medicalisation at this time by the sound of it.

Girls have been tomboys for donkeys years and it's never been significant....its only now that parts of society are labelling it as transgender.

The key thing to note comes from the ICD10 formal definition of Gender Identity Disorder in Childhood....
A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. From what you described that isn't the case.

I wouldn't recommend Mermaids in this situation because I would be concerned that once you start down that road you risk a self fulfilling prophecy.

Let your daughter take the lead.

itsalwaysthequietones · 18/12/2018 13:35

Right, evening here and I'm back at my desk and in a position to respond properly. Thanks again for your resources people, I started having a look on the way home.

cantgetridofthekids sorry I probably wasn't clear in my OP. I'm definitely not considering seeking advice from mermaids, I'd just like to be a bit better informed generally. DD is very happy as she is, so not planning any kind of intervention on that front, but having a child who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes has made me perhaps more watchful than I would otherwise have been about the treatment of children and young people in this context. I absolutely agree with you that girls have been 'tomboys' for many moons and I'm sensing a worrying shift in that not acting the way girls are expected to act is increasingly likely to be seen as a sign of a problem that needs a label.

Anyway, I'm going to get stuck into some more content now, starting with the Michelle Moore vid

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Pennydrew142 · 18/12/2018 13:49

Just to add, my autistic daughter is gender non conforming and we don’t make it an issue and neither does she. She’s aware of and been confronted with trans ideology because of this, but her father and I have raised her to understand that your interests and the way you like to present yourself has nothing to do with your sex and she’s very strongly opppsed to anyone who attempts to box her in! She’s very happy and not bothered by any social pressures.

itsalwaysthequietones · 18/12/2018 14:10

Pennydrew that's helpful, thank you and…

your interests and the way you like to present yourself has nothing to do with your sex I like that, I might steal it if that's ok Grin

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Pennydrew142 · 18/12/2018 14:21

Absolutely! We actually have a sense of humour about it, comedy is my daughters thing! So she is thoroughly amused by others reactions and need to conform. She’s either told she acts and dresses like an old lady, or a boy. She has a thick skin and bags of confidence because she is non conforming and we have made it something to be proud of. I love that she relishes being herself and feels so free to do so. All the best to you :)

itsalwaysthequietones · 18/12/2018 14:27

She sounds awesome penny well done to you and your DH. I hope my DD continues to be as confident as she is now in how she chooses to dress and act.

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