Reliable information/statistics about trans issues

[itsalwaysthequietones]

Hello,

Posting with some trepidation and appreciate this is a very contentious/divisive issue and that the MN feminist forum has come under some fire about this recently. But here goes, I've found myself increasingly torn recently when it comes to the issue of transgender rights. In a nutshell, I'm a fairly liberal type and on the whole if there is a debate I'm on the side of the marginalised group so my instinct has always been to support transgender rights. However, some of the stuff I've read recently has raised alarm bells, particularly in the context of women's sport and the treatment of transgender children and young people.

The latter is more personal to me so I'll tackle that one specifically. I have a DD who is non-gender-conforming in that she has always refused dresses from a very young age, worn 'boys' clothes, will only have short hair, has mannerisms/habits/interests that are more typically associated with boys than girls. She will be 9 in February. She has never, however, suggested that she feels like a boy. I'm immensely proud of her and the fact that she doesn't, yet, feel the need to conform to anything. Some of the discussion around gender makes me anxious that we as a society find it increasingly difficult to accept women or men who don't want to act or dress the way that we feel they should i.e. 'if you are interested in boy stuff you must have been assigned the wrong gender at birth, this is a medical issue and there is something that can be done about it'. Clearly I'm over-simplifying a bit but that does seem to be an underlying assumption in some of what I've read. As a separate issue, I do also have concerns about the threat to single sex safe spaces. And I suppose I mean specifically spaces that have, until now, been female spaces.

But, (and it is a big but), I freely admit to being very ill-informed about all this and I don't want to jump on any bandwagon without having done some proper research. So, although I'm not starting from an entirely neutral position, I am open to changing my mind and I'm looking for some good, clear, objective resources if such things exist. I guess many would say that this is not the place to come for objective resources but I do trust you lot to signpost and then let me make up my own mind.

In particular I'm interested in the following:

• the percentage of transgender people who were born as men and now identify as women by comparison with those who were born as women and now identify as men.
• the difference between having gender dysphoria and being transgender (and how much of an overlap there is)
• the percentage of children and young people who have temporary gender dysphoria i.e. they have a period of time identifying as a gender that is not their birth gender but then revert to their birth gender as adults

Then, specifically, on transgender women in sports, what are the guidelines:

• do you have to have had gender realignment surgery in order to compete as a woman (if you were born a man) or vice versa?
• do you have to have lived as a woman (if you were born a man) or vice versa for a specific period of time in order to compete in that gender group? And if so, what is the period of time?
• If someone has transitioned to being a woman with surgery, hormone therapy, lived as a woman for years etc how big, really, is the competitive advantage (bearing in mind the fact that athletes born as women come in all shapes and sizes and with bodies that are more or less suited to athletic activity etc)?

I've googled the above obviously but there is a hell of a lot out there and I thought someone more up on this would probably be able to direct me, faster, to accurate information.

Thanks in advance for your input

Hello OP.
I'd approach the subject from a safeguarding point of view. That is where my objection to self-id stems from.
You can't allow men into our women only spaces without increasing the risk of harm to women.
The issue of safeguarding extends to children. The consequences are potentially serious. From a social work and child protection perspective, trans ideology puts pressure on intervening bodies to sideline current safeguarding practice and hand over the lead to an untested framework of 'support' e.g. Mermaids.
We have no evidence in terms of long term studies for the safety of such a strategy. Individual, anecdotal stories of 'success' shouldn't be extrapolated into blanket guidance for practitioners.
Statutory bodies have bowed under the pressure of the trans lobby and 'expert' guidance is being issued to professionals all over the country, in every statutory and health body.
Despite the fact that this guidance is often the antithesis of what should be considered good safeguarding practice (information sharing, a joined-up approach and multi-agency working etc), we are told to accept it and not to question.
To those of us who have been practitioners, trans ideology would appear to increase the risk of harm to children.
The involvement of the external trans groups leaves very little opportunity for impartial support for a child before they are set upon a course of action which is all about centring the supposed gender dysphoria. All other needs are seen as a result of that dysphoria. There has been virtually no examination of the other pre-existing factors that seem to come into play in the transitioning child's life e.g high numbers of autistic girls, previous experience of sexual abuse etc.
We shouldn't be asked to ignore proper assessment of each child's situation for fear of being labelled transphobic. Nor should we be asked to let trans charities take the lead (in all but name) in statutory cases. They won't be carrying the can if that child later decides they should not have been encouraged down that route, they'll be denying any culpability in ruining a young person's life.
It's not compatible with current safeguarding practice.
Anyway, that's where I take it from and that's where it hits me hardest.
It's difficult to get your head around the scale of the potential fallout sometimes!

Unfortunately, there is very little research on most of your questions.

Some of it isn't being done because it would never be funded in the current day as even asking these questions is considered bigoted. Which is weird, considering similar studies have been done on homosexuality.

Some research on things like the rate of regret of transition, detransition, or desistance, have been actively suppressed by transgender rights activists.

"- the percentage of transgender people who were born as men and now identify as women by comparison with those who were born as women and now identify as men."

It used to be approximately 5-10 times more common in the male -> female direction.

Now among young adult in the UK at least, it is about 3 times as common in the female -> male direction.

"- the difference between having gender dysphoria and being transgender (and how much of an overlap there is)"

There is no agreed upon consistent definition of transgender so this question would be answered differently by everyone.

Some transgender people say that gender dysphoria is, essentially, a diagnostic criterion. If you experience it, you are trans, full stop.

Others (the more radical activist wing) put it in terms of Gender identity theory which basically means you are whatever you "feel like" even if you are physically your biological sex have no medical intervention and have no issues with your body, if you "feel like you are actually female" then you are transgender.

Many gender critical people and some therapists would say that dysphoria around one's sexed body in fact can occur without an individual being trans. For example, if someone has experienced severe abuse they might disassociate from their body and wish it weren't the sex it is. Or, they might hate their body for reasons of internalized misogyny. Or a man might come to hate his adult male body if he associates it with a male relative who was an abuser. etc.

The dysphoric feelings of people in these situations, are unlikely to be helped by medical transition. Yet it is now considered "conversion therapy" to help people work through such issues if it results in them becoming more comfortable with their natal sex.

"- the percentage of children and young people who have temporary gender dysphoria i.e. they have a period of time identifying as a gender that is not their birth gender but then revert to their birth gender as adults"

There is no data on this among recent cohort of trans children. So it's hard to say. Previous data giving the approximate 80% figure specifically for boys identifying as girls is a bit dodgy in my opinion because it did seem to include some gay kids whose parents were hoping to cure them. Also the earlier studies did encourage parents to force their kids to gender conform (e.g. "wear boys' clothes" etc) as a mode of treatment which isn't appropriate.

In any case a large chunk do desist. No one seems to be able to tell who will and who will not.

"Then, specifically, on transgender women in sports, what are the guidelines:

• do you have to have had gender realignment surgery in order to compete as a woman (if you were born a man) or vice versa?
• do you have to have lived as a woman (if you were born a man) or vice versa for a specific period of time in order to compete in that gender group? And if so, what is the period of time? "

No surgery is needed but for adults in international competition, males must have their testosterone reduced below levels set by the agencies (either via surgery or hormone treatments).

Many youth sports agencies are now allowing people to compete cross-sex with absolutely no intervention of any kind. The argument is because it would be unethical to require youth to damage their bodies in order to compete with their gender identity group. Of course they could simply compete with other members of their biological sex however they identify.

"- If someone has transitioned to being a woman with surgery, hormone therapy, lived as a woman for years etc how big, really, is the competitive advantage (bearing in mind the fact that athletes born as women come in all shapes and sizes and with bodies that are more or less suited to athletic activity etc)?"

From personal experience, I think it would still be very large. My husband was transgender and on hormone therapy / T blocking drugs for over two years and was still MUCH stronger than me by the end of it.

I suspect that the average trans woman (male at birth) will certainly be stronger/faster/etc than the average female person, though probably less than the average male person.

However, among elite athlete there could be a larger advantage for transgender women (males). This is because most of these men before they transitioned actually competed with men so in order to have gotten to that position, must already be much, MUCH stronger/faster than even elite females. Thus when they transition although they will get slightly weaker, they will still be much, MUCH stronger than the elite female athletes.

However no one has looked at a large enough population of transgender women to determine this. I certainly hope some physiologists do this research because it would be very helpful to the IOC and other sporting groups.

Bluestockings35
Just on the subject of Piers Morgan: I think he's a complete cockwomble and an arrogant right wing twat. However, I am in complete agreement with him on the topic of gun control in the USA, as are many other people.

There are times when we all have to, dare I say it, put on our big girl pants and admit someone we dislike and/or normally disagree with, is right.

As for Graham Linehan - I have no idea why you would put him in a category with Peeing Moron. You obviously just dislike his views.