Men and creepy banter.

[TheMatriarch]

16 yr old dd works in a local pub. We live in a rural village, have know many of the locals for years.
The pub is mainly used by men, aged 35 -70.
She will overhear comments about her bottom and looks etc, her friend gets constant comments about her boobs. This is often from the older customers, fine upstanding members of the community.
It’s all seen as a bit of a lark, harmless fun for men winding down from a day at work.

Dd thinks this is a village thing.
I suspect it’s a nationwide thing, possibly even worldwide, but the comments are creepier because they’re coming from older men who’ve known her from when she was a baby. Comments and looks from strangers in a large town are more easily dismissed and ignored.

Men often assume that the young women understand this is why they were hired and therefore know that their objectification is a tacit condition of employment.

That's no excuse.

They know women need money to survive, and they know that working at a bar isn't something women do for fun.

Men who think that the young female bar staff are prostitutes and treat them accordingly are no better than punters.

Only that they don't even have the decency to pay for the prostitution they feel entitled to. Do you think they think women should prostitute themselves for minimum wage?

I agree there does seem to be this tacit assumption that what is essentially these older children have an adults understanding. I think there is something mildly sinisister in the presumption girls mature quicker than boys.

Young girls are essentially boxed in and can perfectly innocently follow fashion and trends that objectify, and now are somehow a 100% responsible for everything that follows that.

As far as I recall I don't recall ever hearing the term girls will be girls. So where is the term that guarantees a full childhood for girls, and the freedom to make a few youthful mistakes as they find their feet like boys will be boys implies?

It's very difficult for young women of that age to do or say anything, even when they know it's completely inappropriate behaviour from the men. If she can't bring herself to say anything (although I support the suggestion that she questions what she's just heard - "What did you say?" or "Did you really just say....?"), I recommend a few other options.

1. A long, long stare. With no smiling. And then no comment.
2. A long look up and down, to communicate that she is creeped out and revolted by them.

Some of the men might default to getting shirty or telling her it's just a joke, but they might not do it so much if they end up looking like the t*t in the scenario.

DD1 who admittedly has no problem sticking up for herself will glare and say "sexist language like that isn't acceptable nowadays" managing to give a backhanded insult alluding to their old age as well as politely telling them off.

I agree there does seem to be this tacit assumption that what is essentially these older children have an adults understanding. I think there is something mildly sinisister in the presumption girls mature quicker than boys.

God yes.

I remember a Judge once summing up that a girl of 12-13 was "no angel" - as though having to navigate a sinister adult world as a child gives the poor kid fully-informed adult agency. It's so bloody twisted.

Oh my God. I mis-remembered - the girl was only 9

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/no-angel-sex-abuse-case-man-jailed-court-of-appeal-criticises-judge-for-his-unacceptable-comment-1487937.html

I've thought that before, too. The (BS) idea that girls naturally mature faster than boys sounds sexist towards males, and it kind of is, but I've known it to be an excuse for men preferring women much younger than they are, as well as excusing very self centered and obnoxious behavior from grown men.

TheMatriarch--That's some serious sexual harassment your daughter's been going through. I know some places of employment that would never tolerate it. I had a friend who fired a male employee who joked about a group of female co-workers saying,"These are all my hoes". I thought firing was possibly extreme in this case, but you know that manager wouldn't tolerate any sexist nonsense like what goes on at the pub.

Oh god this brings back memories. I was 18 when I worked in a pub and had men in their fifties ask me the last time I'd have sex, take me piss out of me when I wouldn't answer (I'd never had sex at the point), make comments to other people about my boobs. It was pretty rank. I didn't even think to complain about it as it was 10 years ago because sadly I just thought it was normal.

Ugh, that case, and I'm including the fact that the judge was told off but not officially sanctioned in any way and the other judge included a "don't publicly criticize judges because that's bad for justice, by which I mean the status of my profession" bit in his statement.