Men and creepy banter.

[TheMatriarch]

16 yr old dd works in a local pub. We live in a rural village, have know many of the locals for years.
The pub is mainly used by men, aged 35 -70.
She will overhear comments about her bottom and looks etc, her friend gets constant comments about her boobs. This is often from the older customers, fine upstanding members of the community.
It’s all seen as a bit of a lark, harmless fun for men winding down from a day at work.

Dd thinks this is a village thing.
I suspect it’s a nationwide thing, possibly even worldwide, but the comments are creepier because they’re coming from older men who’ve known her from when she was a baby. Comments and looks from strangers in a large town are more easily dismissed and ignored.

That's not a criticism of you op- just thinking aloud.

Using the urinals in front of young women

In what universe is this acceptable? I once used a unisex loo and came out of the cubicle to find someone using the urinal (I'd thought it was a wash basin).

In what universe is this acceptable?

Both male and female cleaners operate in this area.
I've seen that quite commonly in service stations, along with female cleaners wandering in and out of the men's.
I assume they don't all stop peeing when she goes in.

I'm in my 40s, boys at my school went for a full boob grab as you walked down the corridor if you were on the larger side.. It was so common, it didn't even occur to me to report it, I was so embarrassed.

More than one pub I worked in, it was well known that none of the male staff would leave a female member of staff alone with the landlord, because getting out with a groping would be the least of it - and again, it was just kinda shrugged off - it never got reported to the police.

I remember just turning 16, and at a family party, and the host (40s at the time I'd guess) asking me if I'd ever tangled with a moustache, demanding a kiss, then being very pleased with himself because my parents were in the same room, I assumed this was normal behaviour and gave him a kiss.

We're groomed continuously, and it's not acceptable, and as adults, we need to step in and make sure our kids know it's not acceptable.

Both my DD's work in a busy pub. Checking loos is part of the job. I am incensed that men cheerily use the urinal in front of them (Don't mind me is the nearest to an apology let alone restraint). They roll their eyes. I still think it's very bad in front of teen girls.

This regularly happened to me in a cleaning job I had when I was 14.

Blokes like that don't care that she's 16. They don't care if she's 13. It's a "bit edgy", yeah, but they'd all shag a 14, 15 year old if they could. Men only say they'd "never do such a thing, omg we'd have nothing in common, maybe five years younger than me but that's it" in front of women they are afraid of.
Men say some horrific things when they are with other men. And they invariably mean it.
Trying to find a job at 16 is tough, OP's daughter probably won't find another job to walk into. So I can see why she'd want to stick it out.

I worked in a pub 20 years ago when I was 18 and the landlord nipped all this crap in the bud. Any comments like that towards me and they could be expected to ejected from the pub immediately. I certainly felt in a safe working environment despite it being a rough London pub.
No one should have to put up with this crap and I'm sorry your dd has to.

Not all pubs are like this, I work in a bar as a second job.
Its 90% men, if not more.
It can be quite intimidating as the only woman in a place with lots of men, especially when alcohol is involved.
On my first shift there was a man getting louder and more obnoxious, he did make a comment towards me and I ignored him, he then went on to touch one of the four women customers on the bum as he walked past.
Landlord made him apologise to the lady then chucked him out, before assuring me they don't tolerate behavior like that. It made me feel a lot more safe.
I'm mid 30s, I can deal with embarrassing attempts at flirting and too personal questions.
Anything more than that my boss would deal with it.
Your dds landlord needs to deal with it. There is no way she should be having to listen to it.

In fact trying to behave as something more than a sex-obsessed dick is viewed as pretentious in our culture oh yeah, they can't go against the herd, they'd be labelled a "poof" at best. Literally the only way to escape vicious misogyny is to be so alpha you rise above it, and most blokes can't manage that. They play along at being "tamed" by the missus, but when the cat's away...
Incidentally if anyone on here has let their bloke go on a stag do in eastern Europe, get tested. He absolutely has visited a prostitute. I promise you.
#notmyNigel
Yes your Nigel. He bloody told me.

OP, this is sexual harassment. If I understand the law correctly if your daughter complains to her employer about it and he does nothing to stop it she could bring a claim of sex discrimination against him. There's no limit to the amount of compensation that can be awarded in discrimination claims and it costs nothing to start one. Might be worth pointing all this out to him.

I hope your dd finds another better job soon.

I worked in a restaurant/pub at her age. I had a customer regularly touch my bum. I felt unable to complain. Now I would.

Pub work is very hard, encourage her to look for a better job.

If you are ever in the pub and hear such a comment, please do say "you've knoen my daughter all her life, it's creepy that you make comments about her body."

I think some men have no fucking idea just how creepy they are!

Both male and female cleaners operate in this area.
I've seen that quite commonly in service stations, along with female cleaners wandering in and out of the men's.

I think that's quite different. They are employed as loo cleaners for one thing,not bar/waitress also topping up loo roll and hand towels. More importantly service station loos are quite big and public. The pub loo is quite a small space, two cubicles and small urinal/ hand wash area. I wouldn't want to be stuck in that small space with a peeing stranger.

At school there was a boy who would jokingly pretend to choke girls, because that’s what they like (no prizes for guessing where that’s come from) - he’s the one person in my life that I’ve had really bad vibes from, and have asked dd to never be alone with him!

OMG I've just noticed that bit! Have you seen the recent threads regarding choking (and sex games gone wrong). That is very worrying. Is he still at school? He really needs reporting.

I'm sorry OP, but you are doing your daughter a disservice here. You need to step in on her behalf and talk to her employer. She is 16 years old and you are still responsible for her well-being and her being treated legally while at work.

Yes, she will learn to fight her own battles as she gets older - but you need to set the example and this is the perfect chance.

Go and see her manager tomorrow and point out the law on protecting employees from sexual harassment. Tell him you will not hesitate in supporting your daughter in a case against his business for constructive dismissal if she is forced to quit due to this behaviour by his customers (which he appears to condone).

I am amazed you haven't done this already. Why are you showing her this is just normal? This should be zero tolerance and who cares if the locals kick up a stink. This is your daughter's wellbeing, trust in men, respect for her feelings and boundary setting that you seem to be allowing to be walked all over. Show her support and do what she is too frightened to do.

She is looking for another job. She doesn't want me to speak to anyone about, as the landlord doesn't see the issue, and if/when she leaves there will be plenty of people willing to take on her job. She knows it's not ok, which I'm relieved at, too many of her friends think comments like this and wolf whistles are brilliant!

As for the choking boy, it was reported to the school, who wrote it off as "boys" and that he was joking, and that no-one was hurt (I still think choking, even pretend, is sinister!) She's no longer at school with him.

Remember, she knows it's not right, she is looking for another job.
Amongst her friends she is one of the only ones who knows what's acceptable and what's not and actually acts on it, and this has led to many issues for her in the past, people assuming she's dramatic and a troublemaker because she won't put up with shit.
In a small village, with a boss who doesn't care what's said, about men who are main figures of the community, chasing after this is not an option, even though it should be. You can't do anything without everyone else knowing, and this sort of creepy behaviour doesn't seem to be an issue for most people, men or women.

This is an individual example of something that is part of a bigger problem. On this thread already someone has suggested dd should wear shapeless clothes - if someone who (presumably) posts and reads on the FWR boards suggests this, no matter how well meaning (sorry to single you out, whoever it was!), then can you imagine the reactions from a judgemental village gossip network, except it won't be on a helpful and supportive level like the above post was. Why was she wearing leggings? You can see the shape of her legs and bottom! The horror! And as much as it is hypocritical to be angry at the situation and not do anything solid about it, we're not in a town where anonymity would be easy, making a fuss about some old men "complimenting" these girls would make our already tricky lives more difficult. For dd the best thing right now is to be angry with her and help her find a better job.

On a societal level these are the behaviours that should be called out, a man makes a comment, or gropes someone, all the men around should be in uproar about it and call him out. Instead we see comments like "look what she was wearing, she wanted it", placing the responsibility on the women and girls, instead of telling men/boys not to drink if they can't control themselves.

Men expose their genitals by pissing on the street all the time. I expect they see this as the same disgusting thing.

I feel for you op, I can see you have been put in a difficult position.
Good luck to your daughter finding a better job, even another pub type place, like I said not all of them are like this.
As for constructive dismissal, I believe although I may be wrong, employees have no rights in that sort of scenario before they have worked somewhere 2years..
Understandably you wouldn't want to be taking on a legal battle over your dds weekend job in any case..
It is disgusting and sad that this is still going on.
This really is a job for men to sort out, I would be horrified and disgusted to know if my ds was making comments or pinging bra straps, I guess I have a lot of hard conversations to have over the coming years.
I'm sorry for your daughter. At least she knows its wrong.

And as for people thinking she's a trouble maker for not taking shit.
Sod it. She knows what's right and wrong, knowing that will keep her more safe.
Good that she's not too scared to kick up a fuss when needed.
I don't take shit either, now I'm in my mid 30s, I wish I had took less shit when I was younger..
Now I'm a feminist. I don't take shit. I don't let men talk their vile shit in my vicinity. If I hear something that needs calling out I will call it.
It makes other people uncomfortable. So what.
I've been called a feminazi, frigid, man hater. So what?
I know I don't hate men. I love some men. I'm raising a man, mostly alone. I'm not frigid either, the difference is the sex I have is on my terms.
I would rather be called a feminazi than sweet cheeks, big tits or give us a smile love.

That's right, you can't bring a claim for unfair dismissal unless you've been employed for two years, but there's no qualifying period for discrimination claims.

I realise OP that taking legal action is probably not a practicable solution, but I wanted to point out that what's happening is actually unlawful (as well as being offensive and degrading).

Trouble is, law is only as good as it's enforcement, and in rather a lot of places in Britain that doesn't exist. Employee rights don't exist. I know where you're coming from op and it's sickening. I bet she needs a decent reference to get another job too?

On a societal level these are the behaviours that should be called out

Yet just above this you explain why this doesn't happen time and time again. In your case, it's a small village where everyone knows everyone.
Everyone has their own story, others will have their own reasons for not calling these men out and at the end of the day they get away with it.
Not a criticism of you, by the way, just interesting these men continue to operate in this way, because there are a myriad reasons for not stopping them.

This is your daughter's wellbeing, trust in men, respect for her feelings and boundary setting that you seem to be allowing to be walked all over.

Not sure I care much for her trust in men not being eroded.

Those are men, and they are doing those kind of things, and they have known her all her life. They aren't freaky exceptions to the norm, they are the norm.
She'd do well not to trust them, or any other man who hasn't earnt her trust.

Its depressing that young female bar staff are often/usually hired as 'eye candy' for the customers to encourage them to drink, stay and spend their money. Men often assume that the young women understand this is why they were hired and therefore know that their objectification is a tacit condition of employment.

Often men (I reckon this is because of the sexualisation of girls/media) believe young women are not naive and are actually aware of the bigger picture in the way that a middle age person would be, and that they enter into all this knowingly and willingly.

I wish there was a way of getting the message out there that physical maturity does not tally up with wisdom or awareness and that young women have absolutely no idea about women's societal condition and each one learns the hard way - through distress and trauma.