Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There are 6 different sexes?

52 replies

MrsScamander · 11/12/2018 09:21

Is there anyone here who could explain this to me a bit more?

www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

The author states that there are 6 viable sexes, but are these not just examples of intersex conditions?

OP posts:
calpop · 11/12/2018 09:29

Easy. The author is confused. the human species is dimorphic. There are 2 biological sexes XX and XY. The others are abnormal karyotypes aka Disorder of Sexual Development aka intersex conditions, virtually all of which result in infertility (because they are not the norm) and so that genotype cannot be passed down to offspring and hence, is not a valid biological sex.

There can be 87 different genders, if people insist, you can identify as male, female, pansexual or a budgerigar for all I care, but there are 2 human sexes.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/12/2018 09:29

No. There are not six different sexes. There are two sexes and multiple disorders of sexual development. I don't have time for a citation, but I'm sure someone else will oblige Smile.

MrsScamander · 11/12/2018 09:34

Thanks guys.

I find it hard to believe that anyone could publish something making such a claim without absolute cast iron proof in the claims they're making.

And I'm also fed up of people confusing sex with gender (sorry, personal gripe from Twitter today!)

OP posts:
Saisong · 11/12/2018 09:34

What a confused article. I can tell you that the author is the phobiest of transphobes though to be holding some those views.

MrsScamander · 11/12/2018 09:37

I would love to know exactly how many transgender people have also been diagnosed with intersex conditions.

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/12/2018 09:48

Female, male, clownfish, seabream, unicorn and science denialist aren't they?

Intersex people are female or male. 0.02% of the population have genitalia ambiguous enough that tests need to be carried out (above and beyond looking at their bits) to determine which of the 2 sexes they are. And the only way of determining if someone has a 'female brain' is to identify whether their brain is in a female body.

mobile.twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1065233370437873666

www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2013/dec/04/male-female-brains-real-differences

calpop · 11/12/2018 10:00

I would love to know exactly how many transgender people have also been diagnosed with intersex conditions.

I used to wonder this too and thought that possibly gender dysphoria could be a by-product of some of the hormonal differences in on or more intersex conditions. However, I have since realised that the incidence of intersex conditions is much, much lower than people claiming to be transgender/pansexual/gender queer etc. Also, intersex people themeselves do not wish to be conflated with transgender and see it as a completely different thing - which it is. See here: www.isna.org/faq/transgender

There is probably a very small overlap of people who are both intersex - a genetic condition but mostly unambiguous - they are male or female and normally have no identification issues with that - and trans - normal genetics but some sort of psychological issue with being male or female as a sex-based gender, but generally, I think they are not linked.

Bubonicpanic · 11/12/2018 10:25

He's making the classic schoolboy error of using intersex to explain trans.

The answer lies in his wide eyed question ar the end, why so much heterosexual porn about men with cosmetic breasts, to which the answer is fetish or autogyneaphilia.

If you have questions about fetish, starting by quoting sex class disorders is abysmal.

AspieAndProud · 11/12/2018 10:50

I’d like to send him to that penal colony in Alien 3 to explain to the other inmates that their XYY karyotype means they aren’t men.

Since they have taken a vow of celibacy ‘that also includes women’ it will be a relief to them that there will still be four other sexes they can fuck.

silentcrow · 11/12/2018 11:20

You know that line from Jerry Maguire where Tom Cruise is shouting "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!"?

I want one of a frustrated geneticist showing "SHOW ME THE GAMETES!!!".

Because that's what it's about, in the end - the ability, or potential ability, to produce one or the other gamete, and every DSD is a glitch in that pathway. No third gamete exists. Some animal species have a slightly different chromosomal arrangement (the ZW system), and plants mess about with chromosome number, but it really is all about whether you have (or have the potential for) one or the other gamete.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/12/2018 11:42

The explanation is that this is a blog written by someone who 'studied classical music and a wide range of liberal arts.'.

JackyHolyoake · 11/12/2018 12:00

Two gametes = two sexes. End of story.

People born with any variation of sex characteristics are either female or male. Some of these variations apply exclusively to females; some to males.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 12:05

There can be 87 different genders, if people insist, you can identify as male, female, pansexual or a budgerigar for all I care, but there are 2 human sexes.

87 today? No doubt 92 are possible in the future, why not 256, 712, 3000 in the future?

Bowlofbabelfish · 11/12/2018 12:30

I want one of a frustrated geneticist showing "SHOW ME THE GAMETES!!!".

I am that frustrated geneticist

There is sperm. There are eggs. There are the adults that produce them. That’s it.

If this person has found another gamete, they’ll be up for a Nobel.

The other examples are either males, or females, with errors of development. Not extra sexes.

Some organisms do have multiple sexes (some beetles and some yeasts fornexample have multiple mating types.)

Humans don’t.

Bubonicpanic · 11/12/2018 12:44

Studied music and liberal arts.

Aargh.
Know your limits people.....

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 12:54

Studied music and liberal arts.

likelwise many in the influential group, Gendered Intelligence:

Dr. Jay Stewart

Jay is co-founder of Gendered Intelligence and CEO for the organisation, overseeing the main activities that take place across the organisation. Over the years Jay has led on the projects: ‘What makes your gender? Hacking into the Science Museum’ – a £10,000 project funded by Heritage Lottery Fund with the Science Museum, London - and ‘GI’s Anatomy: a life drawing project for trans and intersex people’ – a £30,000 project funded by the Welcome Trust carried out in collaboration with Central School of Speech & Drama, London Drawing and the Gender Identity Development Service, Tavistock Clinic, NHS Trust. Jay is also a mentor.

Jay Stewart’s own PhD was carried out in the department of Visual Cultures at Goldsmiths College."

Jamie Pallas

Jamie worked with Gendered Intelligence in July 2013 on the blog and exhibition for the GI's Anatomy project. He joined the GI team in June 2015 to work on Communications and fundraising. In between, he lived in Pakistan for seven months. In the past he has been involved in On Road's All About Trans project that seeks to improve the media representation of trans people. Since 2012 he has collaborated on The Test Shot, an online visual project on transmasculine style. Jamie has an MA in French Literature and Culture from Kings College London. He is interested in gender theory.

Jason Barker

Education Lead

Jason co-ordinates our work in the education sector. Jason was the artist and facilitator on the webcomic project Transvengers with the Wellcome Trust in 2014, as well as a co-facilitator on the 'What makes your gender? – hacking into the Science Museum’ project. He was also the visual documenter on the GI’s Anatomy project. Jason is an award-winning filmmaker, comix artist, occasional stand-up comedian, co-producer of Transfabulous and a programmer of the BFI Flare, the London LGBT Film Festival. He is a freelance animator and his recent clients include Central School of Speech & Drama

genderedintelligence.co.uk/about-us/the-team

UpstartCrow · 11/12/2018 13:08

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs.

There are 6 different sexes?
silentcrow · 11/12/2018 13:43

Upstart, you have made my day Grin

PeevedOfPortishead · 11/12/2018 15:37

I was called out on FB for stating there are 2 sexes - it was argued there were 6... I tried to ask how that worked in terms of reproduction and history of the world as we know it - and was blocked for being a hateful bigot.

HestiaParthenos · 11/12/2018 16:40

I was called out on FB for stating there are 2 sexes - it was argued there were 6... I tried to ask how that worked in terms of reproduction and history of the world as we know it - and was blocked for being a hateful bigot.

They can't answer that question, so they block you.
I don't understand how they can expect to be taken seriously.

Some organisms do have multiple sexes (some beetles and some yeasts fornexample have multiple mating types.)

Beetles? Fascinating. But aren't those mating types still male or female? (As in, only two beetles mate and one lays the eggs)?

I can believe there being needed three different individuals to form offspring in something like yeasts, but am sceptical about this being the case in beetles.
(Sorry, off topic, but I am interested in biology, despite not having studied it.)

Bowlofbabelfish · 11/12/2018 16:57

The funguses etc can have loads of actual different sexes but what is classed as ‘a sex’ here isn’t really what we call a sex in a higher animal. So it’s fascinating - and it says bugger all about human sexes.

Here’s a nice laywomans summary :)

blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2017/11/06/fungus-genders/#.XA_quBbTWEc

I may well be wrong about the beetles ... but fungi do.

Maybe Josh thinks he’s a fun guy and got a bit confused?

HestiaParthenos · 11/12/2018 18:30

Maybe Josh thinks he’s a fun guy and got a bit confused?

Grin

That must be it!

Thanks for the link. The 20,000 sexes don't make sense to me - I would rather say that fungi are sexless and can only mate with individuals that display enough genetic difference from them, which prevents inbreeding. (Although I acknowledge it is difficult to describe fungi in terms we invented for humans!)

Yeahnahyeah · 11/12/2018 20:24

@Mrkhtake2, who IS intersex and strongly objects to TRAs using the condition to further their agenda, wrote an excellent thread on why this is all bullshyt. Wish I could find it - if anyone has it saved would love to read it again. One point she made was that 70% (I think) of all intersex conditions are simply Hypospadia - where the male uretha opens on the penis shaft instead of the top, a pysical deformaty easily fixed. She knows her stuff, and has a lot more points that call out this nonsense, I will go search for it again.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 20:55

Mrkhtake2, who IS intersex and strongly objects to TRAs using the condition to further their agenda, wrote an excellent thread on why this is all bullshyt. Wish I could find it - if anyone has it saved would love to read it again

She's written lots & is worth following on twitter. I have this one saved though:

"We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical, so here’s a quick thread with a potted background and a few articles raising intersex voices.

Currently there’s a lot of talk about intersex conditions, “sex spectrums”, women without wombs, etc. I see John Money being extolled as an expert (Google him if you don’t know – it’s grim). A lot of this talk unfortunately ends up getting regurgitated in the mainstream media too
The problem in the UK is that Trans Media Watch have been allowed to become voice of the intersex community, for example, in this report to the hate crimes committee which was submitted by them..

The document says intersex all over it but represents very little from intersex community. In fact, if this is supposed to be looking at accurate reporting and media representation in order to fight prejudice, why didn’t they pick up on this?

@ NUJofficial why does your LGBT+ advice say that intersex people are transgender and reduce complex medical conditions to one wildly inaccurate statement? This is ignorant and offensive, and explains why our representation is so poor in the media. Can you please fix this?

Quick note: The head of NUJ ethics council has said they will review this at their next meeting since being made aware
Gender radical trans organisations can’t represent intersex people as their beliefs are interphobic. I witness this all the time. The gender radical view that chromosomes have nothing to do with sex and my inability to conform means I am called a man a lot by trans activists.
In other words, I must be “fixed” or comply. If you want to begin to understand the damage that does, this article contains the perspective of women with MRKH and the experts that work with them.

'Why Me?’: When You’re Born Without a Vagina, Cervix, or Uterus
MKRH affects one in 5,000 women—which means that the condition is nowhere near as rare as you might think. For those diagnosed in their teens, sex and relationships are especially tough.
broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/xwqqw3/mrkh-syndrome-born-without-vagina-cervix-uterus

Here’s a perspective from another organisation that supports women with AIS
aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM

My friend with CAIS has had very similar to me from trans activists and I know how upsetting that has been for her too.
Not only does gender radical thinking take from us the language we need to understand our bodies the whole approach to intersex flies in the face of what the community explicitly wants for itself. For example WPATH’s disappointing pathologizing of treatment for intersex children
WPATH guidelines available here if you want to feel futile about the medical profession

This has caused understandably heated reactions from the intersex community
World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) pathologizes intersex people in its Standards of Care, version 7 - Intersex Human Rights Australia

WPATH disorders intersex while depathologizing transgender - Intersex Human Rights Australia
From the ‘Response of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health to the Proposed DSM 5 Criteria for Gender Incongruence’: (4) Adding a specifier of “with or without a Disorder of Sex D…
ihra.org.au/8686/wpath-disorders-intersex-depathologizing-transgender/

Here’s an interesting and devastating blog post from an intersex person in the Netherlands about the impact such protocols has had on their own medical care.

However transgender people want their conditions to be categorised and treated, this has nothing to do with intersex people. As you can see this conflation is harmful to the intersex community, who represent a minority but crucial voice in this whole debate.
That voice is being drowned out. Intersex and transgender are not the same thing. In reality, very few transgender people actually have intersex conditions.

Even those members of our community that do transition are finding this appropriation difficult and noticing rifts within the community and their voices being drowned out. For such a tiny group, we cannot allow this to happen.

There are no laws protecting intersex people in the UK. They are an incredibly vulnerable group. We need to find a way to prevent this appropriation and give a voice to the community before they are silenced completely.
In the meantime, go and follow @ ClareCAIS and @ RaeUK, two amazing intersex women who explain all of this stuff better than I ever will.
I'm also going to add @ TriciaFrasman's brilliant thread that picks apart the offensive "sex spectrum" arguments used. I also recommend giving Dr Tricia a follow."

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1013106135002476544.html

apologies if I've scrambled the links, they are availble in the document above

Yeahnahyeah · 11/12/2018 21:16

You rock, ROwantrees.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.