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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There are 6 different sexes?

52 replies

MrsScamander · 11/12/2018 09:21

Is there anyone here who could explain this to me a bit more?

www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

The author states that there are 6 viable sexes, but are these not just examples of intersex conditions?

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 21:18

Was that the one? Smile

RetiredNotExpired · 11/12/2018 21:20

Yeahnahyeah

The two threads from @Mrkhtake2 I have saved are:

twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1013106135002476544

and

twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1063454985147613187

Doobigetta · 11/12/2018 22:04

Oh, my brother has been touting this one as the reason I shouldn’t trouble my silly little lady brain about gender issues. He’s a philosopher, so knows all about gametes Hmm

Yeahnahyeah · 11/12/2018 22:05

Retirednotexpured, yes your second link (all links good tho) Thanks

twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1013106135002476544

I'ma gonna be forwarding it to many in my life who argue the intersex waffle. (Well, when I learn to sticky-link).

Yeahnahyeah · 11/12/2018 22:07

Bugger it's actually this one that explains it best, whoops
twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1063454985147613187

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 22:12

There's a threadreader version here:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1063454985147613187.html
text:
"Today we’re going to talk statistics and semantics. I’m going to do so via the medium of one of Twitter’s favourite stats 1.7% (aka “intersex is as common as red heads.”). The statistic comes from Fausto-Sterling’s work, which you can see a review of here
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.100…
To understand the statistic, we have to drill down into what the meaning of the word intersex is. Most people think of hermaphrodites. Let’s stress at the beginning there has been no example ever of a human being with both sets of working reproductive organs.
There is a very tiny percentage of people who are born with both testicular and ovarian tissue (what Fausto-Sterling calls “true hermaphrodites”). And when I say tiny, we’re talking intersex tiny, as in 0.0117/1,000 live births, or one in 1,000,000. These are very complex cases.
So, how do we arrive at 1.7%? What Fausto-Sterling does is apply a wider scope. Instead, she argues that intersex is anything that doesn’t fit into a platonic ideal. The platonic ideal, in this case, being a phenotypically perfect XX female and a phenotypically perfect XY male.
This means that intersex, used in the context of the 1.7% statistic, includes people for whom there is no sexual ambiguity. Take for example Klinefelter syndrome (XXY males). As Fausto-Sterling acknowledges, many males can go their whole life and not realise they are XXY.
In fact, the section on chromosomal conditions (anything outside of XX or XY) specifically sets out how they can be categorised, into male or female, according to gonadal (sperm/egg production) sex and phenotype (secondary sex characteristics e.g. genitals).
Other cases that are easily categorised into male or female include conditions like mine, and males with penile agenesis. We have XX or XY chromosomes but absent or incomplete penis or vagina. In males this only occurs in around 1/1,000,000 births but it is more common in women.
Nonetheless, we are still genotypically (chromosomally), phenotypically and usually gonadally typical males or females. See how robust this sexual dimorphism is? Nature is amazing.
Fausto-Sterling also includes variations such as CAH. This is more complex. Classic CAH can lead to ambiguous genitalia. This probably isn’t what people think it is though. In the case of CAH it would be virilised female genitalia. Males with CAH will not have ambiguous genitalia
Typically, virilised female genitalia means an enlarged clitoris and sometimes a fused labia. These might appear masculine but they are female. An enlarged clitoris is not a penis. I’ve written more about this before.

Do intersex women have penises? I’m seeing this thrown around a lot, so let’s address it. Firstly, as ever, let’s all remember that intersex =/= trans, and he conflation is harmful and ignorant. Now let’s get on with some science…

However, Sterling also includes any ambiguity caused during someone’s entire lifetime, known as late onset, which extends the definition beyond congenital cases not of “the platonic ideal” to cases where no difference or ambiguity would be present at birth at all.
This is important as late onset adrenal hyperplasia, people who are unambiguously genotypically, phenotypically and gonadally either male or female at birth, account for 1.5% of that 1.7% statistic.

So far, what we have seen is that, apart from those rare 1/1,000,000 cases, “intersex” now includes a lot of people who are actually still unambiguously male or female. I know this is really boring and nowhere near as exciting as “intersex people are clown fish actually”, sorry.
This thread is quite long, and I ‘m going to wrap it up soon but there is one condition that needs discussing as it’s probably one of the most frequently cited…AIS. AIS (Androgen Insensitivity syndrome) is complicated as there are different forms.
A quick overview; it affects genetic males, as in XY individuals. The individuals are unable, to varying degrees, to process androgens. In other words, they cannot respond to testosterone in the way other XY males can.
Phenotypical features range from a fully female external phenotype, with a blind-ending vagina and little axillary hair development, to someone with infertile male syndrome. AIS is one of the rare occasions where sex may be assigned rather than observed.
As women with CAIS have bodies that are unable to respond to the hormones that produce a male appearance, they are assigned female. I always find it ironic when people roll out “some CAIS women have given birth” as a gotcha.
Yes, they have, with the help of fertility treatments, and it kinda underlines why assigning female makes sense here and isn’t an imposition or a mistake or proof that other XY individuals need the same inclusion. I recommend following @ClareCAIS to learn more about CAIS.
The thing that annnoys me most about Fausto-Sterling, and the copycats who followed, is their need to make it all visually tidy. Sterling does it with this graph, which represents precisely nothing that’s said. You’ll see similar being used in lost of the “sex spectrum” writing.

In what way are many of these conditions a coexistence of male and female? It’s conceptually pretty but scientifically drivel. I want to make one thing clear here, I’m not against the 1.7% being acknowledged as a group. It’s sensible for us to work together. Just not this.
What I am trying to point out is that there is an incongruence between the statistics use for intersex conditions and what people think intersex conditions mean. The vast majority of the 1.7% are unambiguously male or female. These conditions prove how robust dimorphism is.
To get an idea of what I mean, read this thread again, and then try explaining it to someone else without using the words male or female. Biology, and sex, matters."

MrsScamander · 11/12/2018 22:14

Thank you all for the information! I follow Mrkhtake2 on twitter and have read a lot of what she posts but couldn't find anything that refers to karytypes.

Fortunately the person I was debating with didn't reply when I said that babies weren't assigned a gender at birth. So I didn't get the "education" I've been promised on so many occasions Grin

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 22:16

embedded diagrams from above

There are 6 different sexes?
There are 6 different sexes?
Dothehappydance · 11/12/2018 22:29

I have come to the conclusion that to believe that TWAW / TMAM then one has to also believe that there are more than 2 sexes. If you have a spectrum of sex then individuals can sit on it and be either on the 'male' side or the 'female' side.

They desperately have to prove the latter to prove the former.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/12/2018 09:56

There are 2 biological sexes, and a whole lot of very stupid people who don't understand human reproductive biology.

VickyEadie · 12/12/2018 10:25

There are 2 biological sexes, and a whole lot of very stupid people who don't understand human reproductive biology.

I find it all both depressing and a bit terrifying.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/12/2018 10:28

They're starting from the conclusion and trying to work backwards from there. Which is indeed both creepy and sad. "Delusional" is not an ideal quality in a researcher.

shiveringtimber · 12/12/2018 10:36

Thanks for this. Such a relief from all the BS on this subject; no one in my RL world dares to do anything but pander to it.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/12/2018 10:46

Mrkhtake2 is excellent- always clear, always insightful. What she says here is really important: there has been no example ever of a human being with both sets of working reproductive organs.

The very word ‘intersex’ is a bit continues think because it implies a sort of in between state, half between, neither one or the other. And that’s not what intersex conditions are at all.

The public view seems to be of hermaphroditism but again - no one, EVER has been found with working tested and working ovaries. You can have tissue of both but that’s not the same as a functioning working organ

It’s also just occurred to me, and this is s not grim and depressing, that the fetish for retaining a penis and adding fake breasts (don’t google transgirl unless you’re not at work and have ample brain bleach handy) resembles the stereotyped, incorrect, idea Of hermaphroditism.

So I will say again as I have before - the TRA interest in intersex conditions is not benign. At best it’s a misguided attempt at a science gotcha, and at worst it’s a cynical manipulation of the perception of people with intersex conditions. And at the very worst it’s a grim, paraphilic appropriation.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/12/2018 10:47

Typos.. continue should be confusing.

Sorry typing over a flailing sleep refusing baby

MrsScamander · 12/12/2018 10:51

Bowlofbabelfish there's not enough brain bleach in the world!! I'm firmly staying away from Google!

OP posts:
Racecardriver · 12/12/2018 10:52

This is just someone writing popular science for fun. It’s not correct. It’s not meant to be taken as a truth. Anyone with half a brain could tell from the first paragraph that this wasn’t an academic piece. It’s “Teh internet”.

Polkasq · 12/12/2018 11:25

Ailsa
Greta
Ellowen
Kirsten
Tabitha
Ianthe
Willow
Esme
Vivienne
Cordelia
Anastasia
Susannah
Estella
Rebecca
Lowenna
Katrina
Bryony

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/12/2018 11:33

Alas racecar people believe it 🤷🏻‍♀️

We need better basic scientific and critical education. Not just the actual facts but the methods - everyone should be taught how to read a newspaper article on science, or on government figures, or on ‘research shows that...’ and be able to ask the basic questions: who wrote this? What was the question they were asking? Does it make sense? Do the stats make sense?

Etc. Critical thought is vital - not just for science, for everyday life. I’d love to put together a course for school kids (or anyone) that covers this. It’d touch on so many areas - advertising, media, science, politics...

slug · 12/12/2018 12:40

My new favourite meme

There are 6 different sexes?
groundcontroltomontydon · 12/12/2018 12:59

Number of sexes: 2
Number of geese a-laying: 6
HTH

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/12/2018 13:19

The question, ‘a spectrum? Along what axis?’ Is never answered either....

ImPreCis · 12/12/2018 14:09

Slug 👍. I love that meme!

GrumpyGran8 · 12/12/2018 16:20

Currently there’s a lot of talk about intersex conditions, “sex spectrums”, women without wombs, etc. I see John Money being extolled as an expert (Google him if you don’t know – it’s grim).

Oh gosh. I've read his wikipedia entry and he was really was pretty awful. Not just in his disgusting treatment of the Reimer brothers - he believed that paedophilia was OK so long as "the relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual". Shock It also appears he may have started the "6 sexes" nonsense: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sexual_identity,_gender_identity_and_gender_roles

AspieAndProud · 12/12/2018 19:50

The term ‘intersex’ is entirely misleading.

‘Disorders of sex development’ more accurately reflects the fact they are not part of some magic spectrum, they are often conditions which ave a major impact on your life?

Who would choose to be infertile or have scoliosis or kidney hypoplasia, or mental retardation, or any number of problems associated with abnormal karyotype?

What man would revel in having a micro penis or a urethra on the underside of their glans?

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