NZ Rugby Coach: super power that can see ‘genuine remorse’

[Pennydrew142]

This makes me so angry. It’s very common in NZ but this time the offender, not a New Zealander but playing there, was REWARDED with a contract he did not have before he dragged his partner down the road and beat her & avoided conviction because it might of jeapordised a separate contract in Ireland ( them again ) that was withdrawn afterwards anyway! So the top club in the Southern Hemisphere offers him a lifeline because... it’s not a character flaw. Oh no. It’s a behavioural thing. It’s silly really. Isn’t this man Brad amazing? He can tell the guy is genuinely remorseful. If only he was around when Dad was hitting us, he could of let us know he wasn’t genuinely remorseful every time he cried and said sorry. Ffs. This is so so common in rugby but particularly in NZ where the DV rate goes up 80% if the team doesn’t win. Really. Not that I don’t support this, but the All Blacks wore rainbow laces when ex Welsh player Gareth Thomas was the victim of a homophobic attack. On the weekend of white ribbon day. They’ve never worn white ribbons that I can recall. They never speak about domestic violence but regularly are out in support of LGBT & mental health. I guess it would be awkward given so many in their ranks hit their partners ( and never miss a game ).

i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/109078456/unwanted-waikato-wing-sevu-reece-training-with-crusaders

Sorry I can’t do the clicky link, lets see

i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/109078456/unwanted-waikato-wing-sevu-reece-training-with-crusaders

After reading that article I did some googling and was shocked to discover that NZ has the highest rate of domestic violence in the developed world! Why??

It’s really sad. It’s just a cultural thing, and I do think rugby has a lot to do with it. Nobody was really outraged by this case, so that’s why they get off without convictions and continue to play. NZ is really not a great place to be a woman.

NZ probably has too many carceral feminists encouraging women to report violence to the police.

NZ has a hyper masculine culture which has not really been influenced by cultural changes that happen elsewhere. It is a problem - but you'd think that a small country would be able to get on top of it.

interestingly as a teenager there, I felt feminism was a big thing. but that might just be a response to the male problem.

But NZ was also the the first westernised country to give women the vote, has had a number of female prime ministers and leaders, and generally seems to do quite well with female representation. The domestic violence thing feels like an anomaly. maybe it's a backlash.

interestingly as a teenager there, I felt feminism was a big thing. but that might just be a response to the male problem.

Quite likely. I often heard that feminism wasn't a big thing in the eastern part of Germany before the wall fell.
There was more equality in the workplace there than in the West, and while many felt oppressed by the government, women didn't feel a need to fight for their specific rights.

So a country which is especially shitty for women can well have more vocal feminists than a better one.

I agree with you rememberatime in your analysis of NZ culture. I came here in 1970, married a kiwi, and have lived here since, bar journeys back to the UK to see family. It is a hyper masculine culture, and women have challenged it from the suffragettes to the women's liberation movement in the 1970s and 1980s. Male violence has been called out by feminists for decades in NZ. There have been law changes to better protect women and children, but attitudes take longer to change. To be fair, violence towards women which would have been brushed aside 20 or 30 years ago is now more often than not condemned. Unless you are a sports person strangely, in which case you get a pass if you are contrite enough . I was astonished to read that he was not convicted of assault. Would the partner have had to lay a complaint for that to happen?
Women are encouraged to report domestic violence, and the Police do take it more seriously than in the past but that still hasn't prevented women from being killed by their partners, despite restraining orders etc.So yes Pennydrew142 NZ is not a great place for some women in our society.

I’m a Māori New Zealander. My white/pakeha father was violent. I remember when we got older and had enough, we called the police and they told us he looked genuinely remorseful too! It was Christmas Day and he threatened to kill my brother, and beat my mum. Not much has changed really since then. The police are a little better, but the judicial system and social reaction, are not. This isn’t the first rugby player to get off conviction, it’s fairly regular- including All Blacks.

Having grown up in NZ and moved to the uk as an adult, I can honestly say I think it’s far more sexist ( and racist ) in NZ. It’s one of the reasons I haven’t gone back. I grew up rurally and it’s even worse amongst the farming community. Pretty much everyone we knew beat their wife. I note also, they’re about to implement self ID and there’s a lot of support on feminist orgs and the NZ women’s council. I see more advancement for LGBT than women.

Really interesting to hear your insight Pennydrew, especially re farming community.

I had an ex from NZ, whose dad was a farmer and mum a SAHM. When he graduated from uni he came to live in England for a year, which is where we met. He raved about his parents marriage often. How great they were, how he would hope to have a marriage like theirs etc. He had a younger sibling still living at home at school and his mum was training to be a teacher. I thought it odd that in her mid fifties having never worked, she was starting teacher training and would only be qualified about 2 years before retirement age. He didn't think this strange. Anyway, we split up but kept sporadically in touch.

A few years later he phoned me and told me that his parents had split up. His mum had graduated as a teacher at exactly the same time as his younger sibling had left school. She then left his dad. My immediate thought was it suddenly made sense and she had been planning this for years. Being there for her kids, keeping up a front, then having an escape.

TorchesTorches

Yup, my Mum did a very similar thing, although she didn’t train, she started working and doing yoga! Got her own car etc and then when the last one left home, so did she. Many of the women in the small area did the same, I read recently there is a growing number of older women in NZ living alone in rented accommodation. My Mum didn’t even get a settlement, she just wanted to get away. Now she is homeless and he’s a millionaire. Unfortunately he remarried and my step mother killed herself rather than live with him. If only they had put him in prison when we called...

There is support for implementing self ID here Pennydrew142, but also a growing opposition. The Green Party sneakily introduced it at the select committee stage, hoping I think that it would slip in under the radar. Well it didn't, and if you don't already know the website Speak Up for Women NZ go there for a an excellent analysis of why Self ID would be a disaster for women in NZ.
I have written to Jacinda Ardern outlining my concerns, and emailed other MPs who support the idea, as have many others. The Bill gets a second reading sometime in the New Year, so I hope women's legitimate questions about Self ID are heard.
I think we have a long way to go still in NZ, as regards violence against women and children. The report which the current government commissioned has just been released, and it paints a shocking picture. What to do though? Pour money into relieving poverty, create jobs in the regions, build affordable housing, tackle drug use (which is often a driver of violence), ensure that schools have enough teachers and resources for every child, not just the well off, fund groups who work with violent men ... you could do all that, but there still has to be a basic respect for women as equals in society, and we haven't got there yet, despite our history of women leaders.
I'm glad you have found the UK a good place to live.

In the wake of the murder of British backpacker, NZ men have started using the hashtag #notallmen

A journalist responded i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/109251463/most-victims-of-violent-crime-in-new-zealand-are-women

OtepotiLilliane42

Before I left Twitter, I only lasted a few months! I saw Green MP Marama Davidson I think, speak so rudely to a group of lesbians asking which trans offender she had visited ( 8 of 12 are sex offenders ) with regards to changing legislation and enabling them to be moved to women’s prisons. I have seen other Māori women speak in support of it too- AND rugby players. I can’t get my head around that at all. Polynesian women are more likely to be victims of male violence, how can they support this? They know we have a problem in Polynesian culture with violence against women, it beggars belief they can’t see the difference between males and females or the need to maintain current protections. My 72 year old mother could not believe she could be forced to share her gym changing room with men. She assured me she would chase them out and suffer the consequences, refuse to pay fines and go to prison rather than allow this. I really don’t want elderly women lumbered with dealing with this because the young women of Aotearoa aren’t doing enough. I used to vote Green! Ffs!

Oh and while better, the UK still isn’t great for women. My friends daughter was raped in London, eye witness rang it in... met police came round to interview, insisted my friend left the room and said to the girl, ‘ you don’t look very upset for someone that’s been raped’. This was last year. It’s just not quite as bad as NZ.

Pennydrew142Just read the stuff article - very pointed. Of course not every man is violent, but my advice is, don't get huffy, accept the statistics and work with women to change male attitudes.
The murder of Grace Millane is terrible, and I feel for her family.
By the way Jan Logie assured my sister (who was having a running battle with the MP on her Facebook re Self ID) that of course women will still have their sex segregated spaces even if Self ID is passed ...We shall see.
I am sorry to about your friend's daughter. I thought UK police had taken measures to improve their response to rape victims. That was a shocking thing for the police to say to her.

I've lived in the UK almost half my life having been born in NZ and the male culture is one of the reasons I would not go back there to live. I don't even enjoy visiting.

But I would say that the UK is not that much better.

In a small and isolated population, things become magnified and opinions and actions spread quickly. In the UK the population is larger and more diverse, meaning that within a workplace or neighbourhood you are going to see more of a range of opinions and thoughts. it is then easy to decide to only be around those people who share your views.

In a smaller population you are forced to be around those who oppose you. it is harder to ignore when there are fewer people to drown them out.

I have no idea about the argument for self ID in NZ, but I know that my family are not really invested in the arguments, despite being educated and liberal. They don't see it as their fight in either direction.

30 (?) years ago Once Were Warriors shone a light on the male-based violence within certain cultures (and more generally) and nothing seems to have changed.

But don't get me started on Australian masculine culture....

Three male journalists were asked there opinions on Sevu Reece being signed by the Crusaders...

i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/109247250/burning-questions-should-nz-rugby-do-all-it-can-to-bring-joe-schmidt-back-to-new-zealand

rememberatime

In a smaller population you are forced to be around those who oppose you. it is harder to ignore when there are fewer people to drown them out. <

That’s a great point and yes, it’s part of my reason for not living there. It’s just as racist here for example, but as the target isn’t my family and iwi ( tribe ) it’s easier to live here without feeling angry, scared and desperate 24/7. I guess I can feel like an outsider so live in my own bubble. I know I should go back and help my iwi... I just don’t think I have the strength... I spent 16 years with a violent man and fled aged 16 after another fight. I still can’t be around drunk men without fear so NZ is a hard place to be.

OtepotiLilliane42

Women have been trying to change men’s attitudes my whole life. It’s not working in NZ. Clearly.

Thank you for the words about my friends daughter. They’re black and poor, so that contributed to the poor treatment. The rapist lived on the same estate ffs.

If we compare it to the response from men in rugby to Gareth Thomas being attacked for being gay, I think it’s quite telling. If Sevu had attacked a gay man, I wonder if he would of received a shiny new contract?

"avoided conviction because it might of jeapordised a separate contract in Ireland ( them again ) that was withdrawn afterwards anyway! "

Them again?

You mean the union who withdrew this contact when he was charged with domestic violence and cancelled two other players contracts this year?

So despite cancelling the contacts in both cases for one foreign for player and two players from the UK how are Ireland being tarred in this?

MQv2

Are you not aware of the conduct of Irish rugby players?! Or the initial responses to the Ulster rugby rape trial? They cancelled contracts AFTER immense public outrage. My point is, Irish rugby also has a big problem with male players and their behaviour. Another one in the news today for rape.

Connacht also provided a statement for the trial, which stated a conviction would result in the withdrawal of the contract. Not that it was already withdrawn. If they hadn’t made the statement, or had withdrawn before trial, he would likely have received a conviction.

They didn't consider them for selection when on trial and cancelled the contacts after a not guilty given their conduct.
They couldn't for them prior to the trial or at least didn't as they reached the legal process to take its course.

I don't agree that it was solely due to public outrage.
It was widely thought they'd cancel the contacts but that they had to go through legal advice and do things properly to avoid litigation. There were two weeks between the verdict and their contacts being cancelled, hardly an eternity.

Regarding the matter today, you're obviously more in the know than me as I've heard various makes rumored but none with certainty so I'll have to defer to your inside sources.

"Connacht also provided a statement for the trial, which stated a conviction would result in the withdrawal of the contract. Not that it was already withdrawn. "

I was going off the article that you linked

"The Irish club cut ties with the Waikato wing after he appeared in the Hamilton District Court on one count of male assaults female, an incident involving his girlfriend in July last year. "