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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Defining sex in the Scottish Census

144 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 10:46

www.scottishparliament.tv/channel/committee-room-2

Bloke on just now arguing that they are not allowed to ask for biological sex, and should be asking for lived for sex Shock

This is the committee that Rosa Freedman was giving evidence to.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 16:28

I'm just watching now, Rosa and the other woman are very very good.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/12/2018 16:31

I'm halfway through and Rosa and Susan are brilliant.

stumbledin · 06/12/2018 16:33

A thread about this has already been started some time ago. Seems a shame to splinter info like this.

As it also applies to England and Wales.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3441785-Census-in-Scotland-proposes-that-sex-and-gender-identity-are-the-same-thing?noti=1

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 16:45

I'm only 18 minutes in, but the scotgov committee seem to be asking some really good questions, and getting some really good answers. It's interesting the way the MSPs are not focused on the bill, but are really trying to understand sex / gender.

I'm feeling more hopeful than I have for a long time.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 17:18

Watching further... The committee is going way way off topic - girl guides and prisons being looked at in detail. Someone has been doing their research...

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/12/2018 17:27

At 1:41. someone has asked what it means to live as a particular sex and there isn't a coherent answer. The answer starts off by decrying it's to do with sex stereotypes, touches on pronouns and clothes, agrees that male or female brains aren't the case and ends on gender dysphoria. Which doesn't actually explain what living as the opposite sex means. This really is amazing to watch and I'm also feeling buoyed by this.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 17:34

I agree, the MSPs are asking really searching questions - I reckon at least some of them are GC, and the fact that so much is being covered means that hopefully the discussion will be fed back in other areas.

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Theinconstantgardener · 06/12/2018 18:10

Halfway through this on youtube.
Both women are inspirational. It gives me hope. Particularly with all the shit Rosa is going through.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 18:17

Although Rosa Greer is an annoying wee shit...

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 18:17

Ross! Not Rosa Blush

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/12/2018 18:40

Everyone else came across as finding the second panel unconvincing and displayed a good grasp of the issues though!

Sarahconnor1 · 06/12/2018 18:52

I've just watched this, Rosa was excellent. I got the impression that the MSPs (with one or two exceptions) get it, had done their research and have wider concerns. The second panel with Vic was less than convincing in parts.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 18:54

Yes. The first people to be consulted with prepared the MSPs well I think. And Rosa was much more convincing than Hopkins about what the law meant by sex.

I'm really hope that because they moved so far outside the scope of the meeting that the MSPs are really getting to grips with the issue, and see that it is well beyond the issue of a census question.

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Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 06/12/2018 19:03

Follow up from Forwomen.Scot
forwomen.scot/blog/

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 19:10

👍

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Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 06/12/2018 20:37

I'm fan-girling over Joan asking the Philip Bunce question!

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 06/12/2018 20:38

Oh and the ref to the W&E submission!

Joan is awesome!

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 06/12/2018 23:53

This is the most relieved I have felt in years about this, after watching that session. I had all but lost hope in Scotland. But sense is prevailing, behind the noise of those driving this, people are absolutely aware of the issues.

That session left no doubt about what the solution was: sex as a binary, biological question; correct the mistake that was made 20 years ago saying sex could be self defined. Additional, optional, questions about gender identity so Vic can put their non-binary identity in there.

Thank fuck for that committee (except Ross Greer who just illustrated he doesn't have the skills or life experience to be on it)

I am a happy woman tonight.

Gileswithachainsaw · 07/12/2018 00:30

Very interesting.

Nice take downs in the second half.

One question no one asked though..

Vic and tim were saying that there needed to be a third option of non binary in the mandatory sex question. And the trans status question would allow the info to.he interpreted correctly.

Now if someone.ticked female and ticked yes to having a trans status you could work.outntheynwere born.male.

But if someone ticked non binary. Then ticked yes to trans status. That won't reveal what they really are.

So essentially there's a big chunk.of trans people for whom there woukd be no biological sex data at all

Ereshkigal · 07/12/2018 01:47

That's a good point. Rosa and Susan made the point well I thought that non binary isn't a sex issue, it's an identity issue.

gcscience · 07/12/2018 04:16

What an amazing presentation by these two women.

Gileswithachainsaw · 07/12/2018 06:50

Now there was it of jargon and legal stuff I admittedly didn't understand. Alot went way over my head.

Can I just ask. Do they remove the cervix during a hysterectomy ? Blush

They don't remove the prostate do they?

I do think that they were caught out in their lies. I'm hopeful that they saw straight through it as they searched for the submissions to prove it.

I felt that proffesser rosa and was it Susan?? Set it all up really nicely actually. So much so that Vic and tim comfirmed pretty much every thing they said. Co-opting intersez- check. Wanting to abolish singke sex exemptions-check . Exercise in self validation-check

It went exactly like they said it would

Now alot of the discussion on here has been about young girls and women having mastectomies. Not so much in hysterectomy. In fact wasn't there a link from an article written by Buck Angel about the effects long term.of testosterone on the reproductive system. And vaginal atrophy. Do that many really remove their uterus and ovaries?

The point also is that now the game with of what is considered trans has widened so much they can't claim these high rates of surgery when arguing about how services are lacking for trans people.

And non binary doenst often result in surgery does it?

I hope that clicked with the panel. I got the impression that they did notice they were talking nonsense and that they don't really buy the non binary stuff. I honestly thought it appeared that they realised that they had pretty much said and done everything prof Rosa and Susan said they would.

Gileswithachainsaw · 07/12/2018 06:54

Band width

Sorry dodgy auto correct

KataraJean · 07/12/2018 07:02

Thank you for this.
I have not had time to watch it but appreciate the links for future reference. So glad the MSPs are asking searching questions - it needs to be done.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 07/12/2018 07:04

Giles hysterectomy doesn't necessarily entail removal of cervix although I think many going through SRS do. The real point is that surgery is rare.

And yes, T has a horrible effect on women's bodies.

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