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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Teacher suspended for mis-pronouning child

60 replies

QuietContraryMary · 05/12/2018 16:12

Peter Vlaming is said to have refused to use male pronouns for a FTM trans-child, though he does use the child's new trans-name.

""I won't use male pronouns with a female student that now identifies as a male though I did agree to use the new masculine name but avoid female pronouns. Administration is requiring that I use masculine pronouns in any and every context at school. I was informed that any further instances of using female pronouns would be grounds for termination."

www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/controversy-surrounding-west-point-hs-teacher-placed-on-administrative-leave/1639788748

www.thepetitionsite.com/771/641/032/don%E2%80%99t-terminate-mr.-vlaming

"Legal analyst Russ Stone told 8News that it's uncertain whether or not the school has grounds to fire Vlaming."

OP posts:
GardenOfSeeds · 05/12/2018 16:15

There have been a few cases like this, one was safeguarding concerns at the NUT covered by the Times, the others a Christian teacher and if I remember correctly a case in Oxfordshire for mis-gendering students.

Original poster
QuietContraryMary · 05/12/2018 16:17

I suspect this man is also a Christian, as it says he studied theology in France.

OP posts:
KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18 · 05/12/2018 16:19

This happened over here. I’ll try & find a link.

KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18 · 05/12/2018 16:20
Orlande · 05/12/2018 16:22

What a bullying dickhead.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 16:25

I hope he can find employment elsewhere.

Have the school thought about what they'll do when, inevitably, more and more children start to identify as transgender, as has happened in several schools already?

How are the teachers supposed to keep in mind just how each and every child identifies?

Original poster
QuietContraryMary · 05/12/2018 16:29

Does the fact that he is a French teacher make a difference to the amount of gendered pronouns he would use? Generally I'd expect a teacher to use the child's name in most circumstances.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/12/2018 16:32

Woah! That's not a precedent that needs setting in an educations setting.

The school really needs to think carefully about referring him and the GTC should be very cautious. This could have far reaching ramifications

Knittink · 05/12/2018 16:34

Does the fact that he is a French teacher make a difference to the amount of gendered pronouns he would use?

Not to the amount of pronouns, no. But potentially there are other things (some verb endings and adjectives) which would show gender, so even if you were using the child's name, you'd still have to choose to use feminine or masculine options in your sentence iyswim.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 16:34

Does the fact that he is a French teacher make a difference to the amount of gendered pronouns he would use? Generally I'd expect a teacher to use the child's name in most circumstances.

I don't speak French, but if it is anything like Spanish, then adjectives are gendered, too, so he doesn't have to just use the preferred pronouns, but also male gendered adjectives when talking directly TO the child, and it is no wonder that'd drive him crazy.

Also, it seems like they also objected to him using female pronouns when talking about the child to colleagues, with the child not even present.

Original poster
QuietContraryMary · 05/12/2018 16:36

"The school really needs to think carefully about referring him and the GTC should be very cautious. "

This is in Virginia.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/12/2018 16:38

Oops! Blush

I, CuriousaboutSamphire, do solemnly promise to read inks properly before commenting!

WombOfOnesOwn · 05/12/2018 16:39

How in the world is it okay to compel speech in this way?

Yes, you can say to someone that they can't use a slur, but a slur is a slur no matter who it's directed to -- there's no okay person to call a racial slur, for instance.

How in the world is it legal to demand that people speak certain words?

icannotremember · 05/12/2018 16:54

I'm sure they did this in full knowledge of what the consequences would be.

I'm not sure I get why people would be so bothered about this. There are plenty of people on here who feel offended/ upset/ hurt if the term cis is used to describe them. Surely those same people wouldn't find it hard to understand that this child will feel offended/ upset/ hurt if female pronouns are used to describe them?

scepticalwoman · 05/12/2018 16:55

The trouble with teachers like this is that they make the child the subject of the battle. I understand the issue about compelled speech but schools should not be the battle ground for this. At the centre is a child (likely with mental health problems) and we should all aim to protect children from being at the centre of these battles.
I loathe how trans organisations exploit children to further their aims and feel strongly that nobody should be doing this - even if it means that on occasions people have to use language that they disagree with - just as we all do on Mumsnet.

AndThereSaw · 05/12/2018 16:58

There's a difference between occasionally forgetting, (like in CBB that time where the 80YO woman occasionally misgendered the angry transwoman with broad shoulders and long hair while calling the transwoman by her chosen name), and deliberately doing it to upset the child (as happened in the earlier teacher case whether the far right Christian teacher was pretty horrid to all the non-mainstream kids if I remember correctly).
Fortunately the powers that be don't usually sack people for error (in spite of what the rights activists would wish) but are rightly robust with those 'making a stand' at the cost of the children's comfort.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/12/2018 16:59

No, Mumsnet doesn't compel us to say certain things. On here there are certain things we can't say but we are able to find a way round consistent with conscience, like avoiding pronouns altogether.

happydappy2 · 05/12/2018 17:03

This sums up what Jordan Peterson talks about very eloquently....no other ideology demands other people to address them using certain words, that we can identify to ourselves as blatant lies.

Is someone has a title of Lord or Lady, thats very different to a girl demanding to be referred to as 'he'.

At the end of the day, we have a name, as long as that is used courteously I don't see how people can demand specific pronouns as well.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 17:05

Surely those same people wouldn't find it hard to understand that this child will feel offended/ upset/ hurt if female pronouns are used to describe them?

Did you read what WombOfOnesOwn wrote? Cis is a slur, and remains a slur, no matter whom it is directed at.

People evolved to see and react to sex. We didn't evolve to see and react to gender identity.

This child's gender identity is additional information the teacher has to keep in his head at all times.

It is simply not fair to pretend he has used a slur when he in fact used words that almost all other female-sexed children would be perfectly okay with.

Knittink · 05/12/2018 17:06

I'm gender critical and a teacher. But would I deliberately 'misgender' a child if the school had been officially informed they were trans/non-binary etc? Not a chance. I might well do it by accident if I'd previoysly known the child as their original gender though.

MonaLisaDoesntSmile · 05/12/2018 17:08

A few years ago when I was still teaching I had a student who changed what they wanted to be called 3 or 4 times between y10 and y13 first when they went boy to boy identifying themselves as a girl and then within that there were two name changes and the whole issue with what pronoun to use on reports etc. New teachers each year were not necessarily updated on it, and only saw what was on the register, and one thought the boy/girl were pulling their leg by giving a well, unusual name instead of lets say Billy, which was on the register.

It can be confusing and upsetting, and on all official documentation like exams they had to put down their legal name despite not wanting, and yes, people would get it wrong when quickly reading the register. I think a bit of a leeway is needed on both sides, as sometimes it is a genuine slip of tongue that gets blown out of proportions.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 17:10

The trouble with teachers like this is that they make the child the subject of the battle. I understand the issue about compelled speech but schools should not be the battle ground for this.

Indeed, they shouldn't, but I see the teacher's point of view.

I don't know how large classes are at this school, but at my school, we were so many children in my class one teacher forgot my face and asked me who I was when she met me outside the classroom.
She certainly wouldn't have remembered my gender identity.

There will, inevitably, come a time when a teacher will not be able to remember everyone's gender identity anymore, and it is only prudent to put one's foot down before that happens.

After all, it wouldn't be fair to decide that the tenth transgender child in the class has no right to their chosen pronouns when transgender children one to nine get their chosen pronouns.

senua · 05/12/2018 17:16

But would I deliberately 'misgender' a child if the school had been officially informed they were trans/non-binary etc?
How can a schoolchild be misgendered or officially recognised as trans if UK law says that you cannot apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate until you are an adult. There is no 'official' for minors.

Knittink · 05/12/2018 17:23

I meant officially in the sense of being actually requested by the parents or guardians of the child, rather than just requested (possibly on a whim) by the child himself/herself.

Miscible · 05/12/2018 17:36

I don't speak French, but if it is anything like Spanish, then adjectives are gendered, too, so he doesn't have to just use the preferred pronouns, but also male gendered adjectives when talking directly TO the child, and it is no wonder that'd drive him crazy.

Why? Surely it's no different from having to change the form of adjectives according to whether you're talking to a male or female, and indeed whether you are talking to a number of people?