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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teacher suspended for mis-pronouning child

60 replies

QuietContraryMary · 05/12/2018 16:12

Peter Vlaming is said to have refused to use male pronouns for a FTM trans-child, though he does use the child's new trans-name.

""I won't use male pronouns with a female student that now identifies as a male though I did agree to use the new masculine name but avoid female pronouns. Administration is requiring that I use masculine pronouns in any and every context at school. I was informed that any further instances of using female pronouns would be grounds for termination."

www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/controversy-surrounding-west-point-hs-teacher-placed-on-administrative-leave/1639788748

www.thepetitionsite.com/771/641/032/don%E2%80%99t-terminate-mr.-vlaming

"Legal analyst Russ Stone told 8News that it's uncertain whether or not the school has grounds to fire Vlaming."

OP posts:
Miscible · 05/12/2018 17:38

How in the world is it okay to compel speech in this way?

We've regarded it as legal and indeed desirable to compel speech at least since the Race Relations Act 1965, and indeed considerably before that in relation to the laws of slander etc.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/12/2018 17:43

We've regarded it as legal and indeed desirable to compel speech at least since the Race Relations Act 1965, and indeed considerably before that in relation to the laws of slander etc.

Have we? Surely that's to do with what you're not allowed to say rather than what you have to.

Hohocabbage · 05/12/2018 17:50

Of course it’s different Miscible, because you have to look at someone, know the pronouns etc that go with someone of that sex, and then say the opposite to what you know.
I think we should do this to be polite, but that isn’t the same as believing that black is suddenly white.

happydappy2 · 05/12/2018 17:58

Also, as adults navigating the world, we can chose to respect pronouns if we want to. (Most transwomen seem to dress in overly feminine attire, long hair etc, so easy to spot.) in a school, many kids can look slightly androgynous.....just how are teachers meant to know each kids preferred pronouns? We have a shortage of teachers & this kind of crap will not encourage more people into the profession. They are meant to educate, not pander to children’s inner feelings.

TheFallenMadonna · 05/12/2018 18:04

He isn't worried he will forget. That's not the issue here.

R0wantrees · 05/12/2018 18:06

A French teacher at West Point High School, Peter Vlaming, is currently on paid administrative leave for not using a student's preferred identity pronoun.

Students told 8News that Vlaming won't use male pronouns for a student who now identifies as a boy.

An online petition supporting Mr. Vlaming, which is titled "Don't terminate Mr. Vlaming," has over 1,000 signatures. The petition quotes Vlaming on his thoughts on the incident

"I won't use male pronouns with a female student that now identifies as a male though I did agree to use the new masculine name but avoid female pronouns. Administration is requiring that I use masculine pronouns in any and every context at school. I was informed that any further instances of using female pronouns would be grounds for termination."

As others have said, this is seems to be clearly not about 'preferred pronouns' but 'compelled pronouns'

Similarly, this is not about 'misgendering' but refusing to affirm the pupil's assumed gender identity as opposed to their sex.

Words matter.

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"

Jess Bradley 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

happydappy2 · 05/12/2018 18:11

No one should place that much emphasis on how others address them...it’s just not healthy

R0wantrees · 05/12/2018 18:19

No one should place that much emphasis on how others address them...it’s just not healthy

The trans-ideology rhetoric that to 'misgender /mispronoun' someone is 'literal violence' is powerful, especially to vulnerable young people.

R0wantrees · 05/12/2018 18:54

Transgender Trend article:
'The New Fundamentalism in the Classroom, by Mike Goodman (a pseudonym) is a music teacher who makes his living by teaching, playing and writing and arranging music. He has thirty years’ experience teaching in schools and is married with three grown-up children. He is interested in the link between depth psychology and spirituality and has recently become increasingly concerned about the teaching of gender identity in the classroom'

(extract)
"In the staff canteen I brought the issue up, asking several teachers what their feelings were about the subject and if there had been much discussion in the staff room about the issues concerned. Not really it seemed, other than instructions coming down from senior management. I confessed to them that I felt slightly uncomfortable. Not by anything in particular, but just a sense that I needed to keep my mouth shut; that just by discussing these issues I was committing a crime. One teacher said to me, “think what you like but be careful of the pronouns you use.”

So what did I think? After some thought, I decided that it wasn’t any particular thing about transgender in itself that was bothering me. There have always been girl boys and boy girls. Or gender dysphoria as it is called. So why was I still having the uncomfortable feeling that something wasn’t quite right?

I then began to get an inkling of what the problem was.

In any healthy educational environment, students, guided by staff, need to be free to discuss things openly – to be able to argue, debate, agree, disagree and whatever. And of course they should be educated on subjects such as racism, sexism, etc. But it is very difficult to establish forums of discussion on topics such as LGBT once the ‘ideology’ of political correctness has been embraced by the institution. This is because the linguistic territory and the terms of the debate have already been defined and set in stone. That is, there ‘is’ no debate.

The 2010 Equality Act protects transgender, non binary etc people from discrimination, but at the same time puts them in a position where they can potentially hold the rest of the population over a barrel. And this seems to be what is happening.

Edgar Friedenberg defines ideology thus:

“Ideology is the system of beliefs by which members of a social group – it may, but need not, be a social class – develop a way of seeing, and interpreting what they see, congruent with what they have come to define as their interests; while denying, or providing no validation – perhaps even no language – for sensations that, if allowed to become perceptions and then ideas, would threaten those interests. Ideology is a powerful force; more powerful usually, than any evidence or even any experience that might oppose it. Argument does not prevail against ideology.”

Friedenberg’s lines are effective in bringing into focus the cultic and sinister nature of ideology. Anyone who has tried to argue with a Jehovah’s Witness will know that it is a complete waste of time. They are never going to say something like: “Now that’s an interesting point – I need to go away and think about it.” But to be told that “there is no debate” feels like a complete shutdown. A punch in the face from an iron fist.

Friedenberg goes on to say that censorship and propaganda are the methods used to protect and further the cause." (continues)

www.transgendertrend.com/new-fundamentalism-classroom/

MrGHardy · 05/12/2018 19:40

This reply has been deleted

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PebbleDashed · 05/12/2018 21:48

"I changed the world" oh goodness.

Did they stop 1 child from dying? Did they cure cancer? Did they cure a cold? Did they stop someone dying of hunger? No, they insisted an overworked teacher use pronouns opposite to their birth sex.

With such poverty of aspiration amongst youngsters, this is not the time to be complaining about otherwise-capable teachers.

Materialist · 05/12/2018 22:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Vegilante · 07/12/2018 16:08

The teacher in this case has now been fired. I assume lawsuit(s) to come.

www.wavy.com/news/virginia/west-point-hs-teacher-terminated-following-transgender-controversy/1644967678

Bowlofbabelfish · 08/12/2018 10:08

We've regarded it as legal and indeed desirable to compel speech at least since the Race Relations Act 1965, and indeed considerably before that in relation to the laws of slander etc.

No I think this is different. To NOT use a racial slur is different from being forced to say something you think isnt true.

Take religious hatred: it’s unacceptable to use a slur to describe a person following a religion. If I call a follower of the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster a pastabastard then I’m engaged in religious hatred. But NOT calling them that doesn’t COMPEL me in any way. I can get creative and say ‘I personally don’t believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I find aspects of pastafarianism quite beastly.’ Etc. I’m not being forced to say something I don’t believe. People who are racist are not forced to say they believe things. They can say they believe one race is superior to another - that’s not illegal. They will face criticism but it’s not illegal. The illegality is targeting that into incitement etc.

The equivalent here would be me being COMPELLED to say I believed in the FSM.

It’s different because it’s effectively equivalent to criminalising blasphemy. I can blaspheme all I like, the laws againstvhate crimes are to protect the people holding that religion, not the religion itself.

HestiaParthenos · 08/12/2018 11:49

No I think this is different. To NOT use a racial slur is different from being forced to say something you think isnt true.

Indeed.

It was, until recently, universally accepted that lying is bad.

Yet now, it is deemed acceptable to force Christians to act against their faith by forcing them to lie.

Don't get me wrong, forcing anyone to lie is cruel and gaslighting, but I would have thought that at least religious freedom was valued in the US.
Seems it isn't.

Seems everyone must now believe in the religion of Genderism, or be persecuted.

QuietContraryMary · 09/12/2018 07:48

There is more here:

www.vagazette.com/va-vg-tr-wp-wphs-teacher-fired-pronoun-case-20181206-story.html

"The student and parents met with Vlaming on multiple occasions and expressed their concerns. Vlaming shared his position with the parents and said he would use the student’s new name and avoid offensive pronouns, according to Voyles.

But after an incident where the student was wearing virtual reality goggles and almost ran into a wall in the hallway and Vlaming shouted “don’t let her run into the wall,” the parents said it was unhealthy for their child to remain in Vlaming’s class, according to school division’s attorney Stacy Haney."

The students held a protest to support the teacher

twitter.com/ashleyrluck/status/1071090080159277057

OP posts:
Etino · 09/12/2018 07:55

“But after an incident where the student was wearing virtual reality goggles and almost ran into a wall in the hallway”
If that was in a film or novel it’d be a clunky metaphor but either we’re all being trolled or that’s the most hilarious real life analogy ever.
Grin

anniehm · 09/12/2018 08:06

The policy here for primary schools is for teachers to use the registered name that parents supply and they use the pronoun based on registration. As secondary school pupils can inform the school of what they wish to be called - usually this is a typical shortening but a number of students give quite different names and gender neutral ones, when requested teachers are asked to use the pronouns the young person requests or use their name to avoid the need to use them when uncomfortable. 4 students have transitioned (14-18 school) in past 2 years. I don't personally agree with any treatment under 18, mostly due to the fact that a fifth student and close friend of my DD's changed her mind and is back to she.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 09:09

Woah.

I’m shocked by how many people are saying that what he did was a good thing.
I don’t buy into the trans ideology at all but how was he helping?
He’s a teacher, surely his first priority should be to protecting the child. I doubt very much that the child is going to say ‘oh wait my French teacher won’t call me by my new pronouns I mustn’t be trans after all’
No they are going to think the teacher is bullying them.

It’s a different conversation when we’re talking about adults but we have to tred carefully with children.

Hohocabbage · 09/12/2018 09:59

I can’t think of a time when I call a pupil - who is with me - by a pronoun. Confused

kim81 · 09/12/2018 10:04

Do what you are asked by your boss or get fired. Pretty normal practice isn't it?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/12/2018 10:10

Lie when your boss tells you to or get fired.
Sadly probably is pretty common, yes, but that doesn't make it right.

homoseXXualmum · 09/12/2018 10:34

Native English speakers really have no idea how integrated gender is into language for someone who has French as mothertongue. All latin based languages gender EVERYTHING not just pronouns. Verbs, adjectives, prepositions even counting can be gendered and you can not shake that off, it's a reflex. It sounds like he has quickly shouted 'don't let her run into the wall' out of reflex to me.

I know a person who has gone through at least 3 names and pronouns combinations in the span of a year. In my classes you were lucky if a teacher would know your name after two years of being in that class.

Bowlofbabelfish · 09/12/2018 13:19

The problem with cases like this is that the emotion obscures the principle behind it.

It appears that he’s being an arse to make a point and that’s not great where kids are concerned. But the principle behind the case is can you be legally compelled to say something against your beliefs?

It’s a bit like that case with the bakery that refused to ice something on a cake for a couple. They were being homophobic and so the instant reaction is, this is wrong. But when you look at what the principle being tested in court was it was again, can you be compelled to say something against your beliefs?

In the bakery case, the judge ruled that the bakery was not discriminating - they had baked the cake just as they would for any people and provided them materials to ice the message on, but they should not be compelled to ice that message if they disagreed with it due to their beliefs.

And I think the judge was right. I disagree with the bajery’s Stance on homosexuality and I think they’re bigoted. BUT I also think that they should not be compelled to say something that they disagree with.

So I think we should be looking behind the emotional ‘immediate reaction’ here and looking at what’s really being tested. Because what’s actually being tested is someone being forced to say people can change sex.

I would use the pronouns a colleague wanted to be used out of politeness.
I would be seriously worried for our democracy if I was compelled to do so under law.