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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

533 replies

OrchidInTheSun · 04/12/2018 06:00

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1069731404488077318?s=21

Nic Williams will be debating with Beth Jones, who is an academic at Nottingham Trent www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

OP posts:
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VickyEadie · 04/12/2018 19:29

The best women athletes can only run faster than the mediocre men. That's because men have a physiological advantage. Those transwomen who compete against and get beaten by women wouldn't even be able to beat the mediocre men BEFORE they dropped their testosterone to a level that is still higher than the women's.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/12/2018 19:33

DS is 14 - he is as strong as an Ox and as tall as me.

I have sparred with him (he does MA and I used to) and I only get a few good hits because I learned a different discipline from him, and have moves he doesn’t expect. Otherwise he could cream me (but shhhhhhh he still hasn’t realised). He is male - he is stronger and faster than I ever was and he is still growing!

He is also a very nippy runner - I was always fast, but he was called the fox at his last school.

Datun · 04/12/2018 19:38

Thanks bowl. I agree. The whole issue is awful to contemplate.

And yes, this thread seems to have provoked a lot of panic.

It was always going to be an issue that showed transgender activism up. Because of the inherent unfairness. Even if you are a rank misogynist, it's difficult to deny the physical power differential between men and women. Even if you deny the societal one.

The fact that the only argument seems to be that women just aren't putting their backs into it, despite secretly beating men everywhere, was not one, I think, that most people thought would be forthcoming.

🤣

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/12/2018 19:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 04/12/2018 19:43

My oldest son is 11. He's almost as tall as me and is very strong. He works with his dad a lot and can carry big man-sized logs and split and stack them. I'm a pretty strong woman myself (we live on a farm, everyone has to be strong!), and I can still just out lift him. He is stronger than his 13yo sister but he hasn't realised it yet.
Again, he's 11 - he has barely looked at puberty.
The fucking gaslighting, as if we all haven't noticed the obvious, plain as day differences between the sexes.

happydappy2 · 04/12/2018 19:45

I can understand a man wearing womens clothing & presenting as female, to ease their gender dysphoria, but I don’t see that then opens the door for Male bodied people to compete in womens sport.

This is absurd and clearly denies women a place on the team/podium.

Why don’t men compete against transwomen? Or start a Trans team, I don’t really have the answer, but expecting women to compete against Male bodied people is the absolute opposite of chivalry!

BubonicBudgie · 04/12/2018 20:05

When I was 13 I used to fight my younger brother. Then one day mid fight I realised our fighting days were over. He was far too strong.
He was 11.
Excellent work Pencils.
This thread is really ruffling some feathers

BubonicBudgie · 04/12/2018 20:06

I can't see Wimbledon putting up with this

pombear · 04/12/2018 20:11

Pencils thank you as usual.

And any thread that Datun gets a deletion is a signal that fury elsewhere is likely to be high.

Bowl Sad

SophoclesTheFox · 04/12/2018 20:15

That transcript Shock

Wow. Beth, give your head a wobble mate. You just went on national radio and implied that males are better than females at sport because they try harder. How on earth did you come to make yourself believe this??

I don't want sport to be segregated by Same Sized People. I'm a six foot, twelve stoner. By any measure, I'm going in with the men, where I will be comprehensively beaten. I compete in triathlon (men and women compete together in the sense that we're on the course together, but competing by sex) and while I can outswim a good proportion of men (because I'm a top 10% female swimmer, and because it's so technical that the gap between male and female isn't as yawning as in some other disciplines), but the second we all get out of the water, I get my arse thoroughly kicked on the bike and run.

Males in female sports are doping. Going through a male puberty is doping.

BubonicBudgie · 04/12/2018 20:16

I am clearly not working hard enough.
I've not got a deletion Grin

OrchidInTheSun · 04/12/2018 20:31

Thank you Pencils. Really appreciate your hard work Smile

OP posts:
AspieAndProud · 04/12/2018 20:35

Re: Beth Jones.

That’s a hell of a lot of ‘you knows’ for someone saying ‘we just don’t know’.

AspieAndProud · 04/12/2018 20:46

Women athletes will improve their game if they compete against men.

Also, male athletes will improve their performance if the wrestle bears and run from tigers.

The Romans had it right all along.

WrathofbubonicKlop · 04/12/2018 20:47

Pencils
Thanks for the transcript.

Just listened to the podcast.
Of course transwomen want to compete in women's sports.
They are cheats.

No mention of MN on WH.
Deliberate?

Only the UK's main sounding board for womens opinions, isnt it?

Melamin · 04/12/2018 20:47

And any thread that Datun gets a deletion is a signal that fury elsewhere is likely to be high.

Yep.

PositivelyPERF · 04/12/2018 20:50

👆yup

PositivelyPERF · 04/12/2018 20:51

Datun, you are our barometer of TRA rage. 😁

SophoclesTheFox · 04/12/2018 20:54

Datun is the reasonable canary in the mines of gaslighting fuckery!

When she starts getting deleted, you know the gas burners are on full bore, pumping out manipulative nonsense.

rightreckoner · 04/12/2018 20:54

She is so provoking - with her calm clear explanations and intelligence Grin

Bowlofbabelfish · 04/12/2018 20:58

I don't understand why both sides keep mentioning there not being any relevant scientific evidence. There must be heaps that would inform the debate, at least partially.

Take the most obvious thing you can think of, something that your senses confirm daily and which society has had as a self evidential truth for millennia. I dunno. Fire when wood burns is hot, something like that.

Now someone comes along and says actually, fire isn’t hot. No it is, you say, toasting a marshmallow, fire when wood burns is hot. Aha, they say, but what about ethanol? I’m not talking bout ethanol, you say, there will of course be some substances that burn below marshmallow roasting temperature but camp fires, made from wood, are hot.

What about isopropyl alcohol eh? GOTCHA!

I’m not talking about something from a lab, you twit. I’m talking about building a fire from wood. It’s hot.

Ah, they can, can you definitively prove that all wood is hot burning, where are the scientific papers? GOTCHA!

It’s that level of debate. Science doesn’t need to do extensive research to prove that shit we know is true, is true. If you want to say that shitvisnt true, YOU, my dear TRA, must bring the evidence.

HerFemaleness · 04/12/2018 21:00

What I struggle with is that somebody can come along and deny human physiology - scientific fact and that person is taken seriously and interviewed on the BBC. Did Women's Hour know that this Beth Jones person had such extreme crackpot views?

The problem with this attempt at impartiality is that it presents the two positions as balanced and equivalent. As if understanding that men and women are build differently and men on average have physical advantages is equivalent to denying any difference exists at all and all women need to do to outperform men physically is to try a little harder. Flat earthism isn't an acceptable alternative belief to accepting the earth is round. Creationism isn't an acceptable alternative belief to evolution. Beth Jonesism as I will christen this travesty, isn't an acceptable alternative belief to the normal understanding of sex differentiation between men and women.

rightreckoner · 04/12/2018 21:02

It’s all part of denying material reality and I agree with you bowl. I don’t think we should play that game and agree that there isn’t much research.

I think we should ask what funding is available for research into whether men are stronger than women - answer - none because it’s not necessary.

Next up my proposed PhD to examine the thesis that the sky is blue and that cats are fluffy. Who wants to fund me?

Bowlofbabelfish · 04/12/2018 21:05

The problem with this attempt at impartiality is that it presents the two positions as balanced and equivalent.

YES. This is exactly it. The Beb is misunderstanding what a balanced debate is. It is not ‘someone from the exact opposite end of the argument no matter how extreme.’ Not all views and opinions have equal merit. It would be like debating a subtle point of human evolutionary theory by having a creationist on, rather than an out-of-Africa proponent vs a staunch multiregionalist.

TimeLady · 04/12/2018 21:09

Dr Beth Jones doesn't seem to be a fan of Twitter but at least her controversial views on transgender sports will be archived here on Mumsnet should anyone to a search in the future Wink

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