Why should men support feminism?

[ScottCheggJnr]

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

This is a genuine question.

@ScottCheggJnr
Because it's a man's problem.

It's a man's problem [Edited by MNHQ at OP's request] http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3442504-Its-a-mans-problem-Edited-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request

The assumption that part time work has to mean a slower career progression is part of the problem. I am at a fortunate point in my career where I can facilitate the offer of high quality well paid part time work to others with no detriment to their careers. Male or female, parent or non parent. There are a great many careers that can be delivered just as effectively on a part time basis as on a full time basis.

It depends on how you define support. If you mean active support that requires effort (e.g: developing a diversity policy …). I don’t. Women are more than able and activism doesn’t suit me (e.g: I’m a vegetarian, I don’t bother people with it).

I treat it like a toolbox, with some useful theories and concepts that can make someone a better person. I enjoy reading about it; it’s nice to see things from a different angle. E.g: there is a Dutch sociologist, that identifies as a radical feminist, I really appreciate. I don’t limit myself to gender appropriate activities. I behave like a decent person and treat other people accordingly (regardless of sex/whatever). Good enough for me. For sure I’ve suffered from ‘toxic masculinity’, causing a brief period of mental health issues (over now, but let’s be honest it always lingers since you always have to be vigilant). This enhanced my empathy for people who suffer, but I like to help on an individual scale (type something anonymously on a mental health part of a forum or similar; I’m relatively useless with wording my feelings so I can’t really help much- I do try though). I’ve always been surrounded by strong women, none of them need my help (bar the occasional picking up or something). Wonder how that works, when you’re in a relationship with an activist feminist (or socialist, etc…). What’s good for the both of you, isn’t always good for women in general (or society). Sounds hard work, and a difficult balance to strike.

Also Scott you would be much better actually devoting yourself to supporting other men than arguing with feminists. I have no need to make you an advocate for our sex. You do your thing to help the men who can't help themselves. I will continue to advocate for both men and women to have high quality part time work opportunities.

Men as a class have to be constantly responsible for a few men dominating at the top end and then the many more failing at the bottom end who succumb to violence and crime, who it must be said are far far more likely to murder and assault other men than they are women.

Men are a class? Really?
Then you go on to talk about how social constructs of masculinity harm men and women. Why not talk about how men should strive to construct healthier masculinities?
( I don't mean by going to the gym, incidentally.)

"I predict the next quantum leap in the advancement of women in society will be the medical breakthrough allowing women to put off having children in the same way as men."

Women already can have children later in life, donor egg assisted conception and adoption.

Let's be honest though, as an older mum, having children later in life is knackering!

Instead lets not penalize women for Being the so men's who give birth. It's not a difficult concept.

Haven't read the thread, will just answer the question:

Because it's the right thing to do.

Period.

A man who needs any other (more selfish, I assume) reason is not worth talking to.

I don't walk around asking why I, as a white person, should oppose racism. I don't complain that people of colour who fight racism aren't interested in my white person problems. Because I am at least trying to be a decent person.

Do you want to be a decent person, OP? Then you'll support women's liberation. Without asking how it will benefit you.

Do men oppress women?

Do men benefit from this?

Why would men work to end an oppression that they benefit from?

Who benefits from women’s oppression, supposing it’s not men?

I overheard a young lad on the bus saying to his friend "You have to be a feminist these days, it's the only way you can get any hole"

You know, if I was part of a class that was responsible for 98% of all violent crime, I would certainly My be thinking about whether there was anything I could do to change that. I wouldn't -I hope-be focussing on the fact that I, personally hadn't beaten anyone up recently.

Micaela - I overheard a young lad on the bus saying to his friend "You have to be a feminist these days, it's the only way you can get any hole"

I know this wasn't the point of your post, but god if only that were actually true.

My adult daughter sAys that a man saying he's a feminist is a red flag.

She's right! I mean, I wish I didn't have to say that, but I've met enough "male feminists" to side-eye them.

My adult daughter sAys that a man saying he's a feminist is a red flag.

I will say I have made better experiences with men who did not make these kinds of self-declarations but just happened to have compatible views - like rejecting prostitution from a male point of view, because, obviously if someone has sex with you for money, she doesn't really want it, and having sex with someone who does not want to have sex with you is a huge turn-off. As opposed to the 'woke feminist' who was convinced for women in prostitution it was all about free choice and following their calling.

My adult daughter says that a man saying he's a feminist is a red flag
Definitely my experience, and I'm in my sixties and have heard enough of them declaring it. All opinionated, puffed up toads, in my experience.

Give me the man who challenges other men for their behaviour any time.

Give me the man who challenges other men for their behaviour any time.

Exactly! I'll take the man who pisses on his buddies' misogynyst jokes/talk/actions parade over the self declared 'feminist' any time.

My adult daughter says that a man saying he's a feminist is a red flag

She should take a look at the concept of 'moral licensing' or 'self licensing' (I've mentioned this elsewhere a couple of times recently)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing

You know, if I was part of a class that was responsible for 98% of all violent crime, I would certainly My be thinking about whether there was anything I could do to change that. I wouldn't -I hope-be focussing on the fact that I, personally hadn't beaten anyone up recently.

I don’t necessarily think you would.

The only thing you can actively control is being a decent person yourself and occasionally call someone out when he/she crosses the line (if you can do it in a safe enough manner).

I don’t disagree with male violence, being a male problem, but you as an individual can do very little about it. It’s not about remaining silent or similar it’s just very difficult (impossible) to make a meaningful difference. I used to play football on a relatively good level, not any more now I play in the somewhat mixed (3 women – 15men) team of my alumni student association (we almost always lose but that’s okay, I learned to accept that), you’re treated to all sorts of wonderful chants like those about our mums being whores … . Speaking up in this case would mean filing a complaint, we always did, other team pays 65 € - dealt with (apparently weird because you don’t have to take it personal you see). Fine you can start to give workshops, TED talks, whatever. The people who read/watch/visit them, generally do not need them (except educators, they need them). I don’t know if you know Damso, was relatively unknown until the women’s council discovered that his lyrics are sometimes of a misogynous nature (an example: “women be careful if you mess with me. I become dangerous. Then I can slit your throats.”, and on and on). As a result his popularity boomed.

You can give a good example and that’s that. It’s not that other, real-life, women ask more of you – you have to adopt something that resembles a fairness principle and that’s enough for most (most people aren’t activists).

My adult daughter sAys that a man saying he's a feminist is a red flag

A man saying generic things he thinks women will like is a red flag, in general.

I have had men tell me that they love romance and aren't interested in porn, too.

The attempts to deceive me were rather pathetic, but it never hurts to be careful.

This collective guilt thing is absurd, the only men it will appeal to are neutrotic men highly unlikely to be violent anyway, or those who will just pay it lip service because it's the correct virtue to signal to gain access and brownie points with women. So what does that approach achieve exactly?

If there is section of the male population that require censure on this is it's either the violent men themselves as individuals or perhaps any fathers that refused to be present in their lives and provide the correct role model template on how to behave in a non-violent manner.

Errol interesting link thank you, re self licensing.
Clear as day now that I have a name for it.

The thing is that there is a lot within "male culture" that tacitly reinforces violence-from porn to films to video games to shouting "Get stuck in!" at junior football. If men collectively rejected that stuff, then its influence would start to wane.

I think it is pretty feeble for a man to claim that it can't be challenged. It smacks of the " we were only following orders" mentality.

I've seen men call stuff out, individually and collectively, the challenge to the mouthy Dad at the children's football match, the hard stare at the office joker.

Hardly Rosa Parkes refusing to give up her seat on the bus, I realise, but every challenge is important in breaking a toxic culture.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

1. Because most of the things women tackle, are because of men.

1. As are most of the things you want to tackle.

1. Most often men's issues are only brought up as a "but what about us menz".

1. If you are for "equality" as you say, that necessarily implies you should be for equality in those issues where women are disadvantaged. But you are not else you wouldn't ask, on top of that you are doing 3.

So maybe you aren't for equality after all. Quelle surprise.

MrGHardy excellent post.