I'm so bloody fed up with this

[ofcourseibloodyncd]

It's across the boards of MN

It's across the world IRL

For the record yes I've been the victim of sexual abuse/assault/rape

But I didn't have to be to hold a valid opinion or be taken seriously when I say "as a woman, I feel..."

I've said this on another thread recently

You are dismissed... unless of course you have experienced and admit to certain things having happened to you. Then you may have special kid gloves and sympathetic understanding for your POV

You don't have to sleep with penises if they trigger you and you're a lesbian. It's okay then to say no.

You can feel threatened by men if you have been a victim. It's okay then

You can refuse to get changed/pee/sleep in the same room with men if you've been a victim. It's okay then

You can do lots of things and feel lots of ways - as long as you've been a victim or admit it

But if you don't admit it or you haven't... you are a stupid hysterical overanxious woman

You absolutely cannot feel any way JUST because you are a woman. It just isn't valid.

Stop being naughty women and lying about how you feel. You are wrong!!!

(You're not wrong btw, and you are valid)

Stop making women's feelings only valid if they share their traumatic experiences first to justify them

I'm ranting. Clearly this is aimed mostly at the males (but the attitudes of some women too)

medium.com/s/man-interrupted/https-medium-com-zaron3-guide-to-being-a-gentleman-in-the-metoo-era-f87ef12a9caa

Yes male humans - it is a brave new world where you MUST get into that habit of listening

We shouldn't need #metoo before you did though

I'm glad it wakes you up

But you didn't need #metoo first. You could have listened before to women

Stop making us say it before you fucking listen

Women aren’t believed when they are victims; let alone listened to when they have something to say.
theconversation.com/four-in-ten-australians-think-women-lie-about-being-victims-of-sexual-assault-107363?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20November%2030%202018%20-%201174110653&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20November%2030%202018%20-%201174110653+CID_5a2078dbc15f9ddb72f8e5de21d36350&utm_source=campaign_monitor

Amen. It’s infuriating.

Totally agree.

I saw a tweet along these lines recently.

Women have to have been utterly violated to be afforded bodily autonomy. Sickening.

Also see the horrifying thread on here about women’s health concerns being routinely dismissed.

Or, even if you have been violated, its all NAMALT and how dare you put up boundaries so it doesn’t happen again.

OP, I agree.

It's definitely even if you have been a victim you may still not be listened to or just slightly patronised

But I am so angry the amount of times women are FORCED to pipe up #metoo for what they are saying to be considered as anything more valid than the ramblings of hysterical overanxious women

You can have a valid feeling or POV simply AS a WOMAN

I don't want to say IRL conversation to colleagues, friends, family or even here on MN threads that I was a victim. I would like to JUST be a WOMAN (who is listened to)

I am frequently made aware that unless I have been a victim I am chatting rubbish and overreacting but if I was a victim they could understand- but I said "AS a Woman, I feel..." and it's not enough. I cannot simply be a bloody woman with my feelings.

The experiences we who have been victims have had were not for the purpose of being understood or sympathised with later. We don't always need to talk about them and share them to make our opinion count!!! (Except it seems we do)

To help stupid people understand- we must detail what happened so they can. We must think back to that night/time/years when we were victims and tell you who gives no fucks other than trying to shut us up about it

Because JUST being a woman- is not okay

I JUST want to be a bloody Woman ffs

(Sorry I'm really, really angry - and the feminist board is not necessarily the audience who I am ranting at. But I feel safer here)

I felt forced to disclose my status as a victim sexual assault in a meeting with my MP because he wasn’t taking my fears re self ID seriously. It didn’t fucking help. I’m still angry about it.

@TheHarpySings I'm so sorry. This!!! This right here...

They force us to say. They don't fucking care. When we want to speak up - that's our choice. When we are manipulated and forced to... it is vomit inducing and twisted

JUST as a WOMAN "I feel..." should be fucking enough!

I entirely agree.
It is an experience I had in my marriage which was coercive control and abuse. It was like I felt if I just explained a little bit more, he would understand and change his behaviour. I explained and explained and then as things went through court, got experts to explain and explain, and you know what? He still wants more and more explanation. So the only answer is no, no explanations any more, just clear boundaries. I still had to explain to other people why those boundaries are there.

Explaining - particularly when you are traumatised and vulnerable - puts you on the defensive, it makes you doubt and question yourself, and it simply gives the perpetrator more leeway to pick up on what you are saying and question it more.

No should be enough.

It makes me uncomfortable on threads on here when women feel they need to share distressing experiences to validate their views. However, I know I did it a lot a couple of years ago because I was not able to talk about it in real life, I had not found the words.

I agree that it is somehow perpetuating the abuse to only take a woman seriously if she discloses it (or worse then ignore even that). But it is also dismissive of other women who have a right to bodily autonomy, integrity and privacy anyway - you do not have to have been abused to have an issue with male-bodied people in female bathroom space.

So yes, I agree with you

it is somehow perpetuating the abuse to only take a woman seriously if she discloses it (or worse then ignore even that). But it is also dismissive of other women who have a right to bodily autonomy, integrity and privacy anyway - you do not have to have been abused to have an issue with male-bodied people in female bathroom space.

Exactly! Or say you feel anything that you DO feel and be heard just because you are a woman or keep boundaries just because you are a woman

Yes I hear you OP. It's this insistence on, as one of my friends put it , having to show your "raped enough to ride" ticket before anyone listens to you.

I am one of the very fortunate women who hasn't been raped or seriously sexually assaulted - guess what... I still think self ID is a terrible idea. I don't want to come out of the shower in my gym wrapped only in a towel and be confronted by a penis. And my opinion on this should count for as much as the penis owner's, regardless of how he identifies. In fact my opinion should count for more, because in sexual situations, no trumps yes (just as a man's no would trump my yes if I tried to take my vulva into the men's changing room).

I totally agree. When something happens we are the ones who are judged on our behaviour and castigated for not keeping ourselves safe; when something hasn't happened yet we are judged on our behaviour for trying to stay safe.

Also, people who force you to disclose your victim status are abusive.

I hear you, OP.

We don't need to have suffered to earn even a modicum of respect or attention. We exist. We have rights. And those of us who have suffered shouldn't be required to self-flagellate before having those rights recognised either.

Hear hear!

I hadn't come across the expression "raped enough to ride" but it sums it up. Ugh. (Plus, why do I feel some people get a prurient thrill from forcing out the details? /slight derail)

No should be enough. No is a complete sentence. No. Just No.

Much of this is rooted in women not being regarded as full, actual human beings in the same way men are.

I know this is a basic tenant of feminism but it's only recently that I think I've truly appreciated what it means and what the implications are for women.

I agree, it's rage inducing.

And for posting pretty much the same thing

I am banned from r/feminism on Reddit

WTAF

Oh I get it. There's a mod for transfeminism. There we go

Can't remember what I actually posted but thought it was more in the vein of my second post than the things I said in the first. I guess I will never know unless they send it back to me with an explanation as it's vanished

Zip it woman!

The head mod of /r/feminism is a men rights activist. He took control some years back and has been gleefully banning feminists ever since.

Seriously?

Well that will teach me to assume a topic might be what its title is!

Hadn't posted there before, mistakenly assumed it was a feminist sub 😡

I found out the hard way and was banned there a few years ago, went looking around and found article describing how this MRA guy took control of the sub.

/r/feminisms is still a feminist sub and /r/gendercritical is the most active feminist sub, although of course it has more narrow focus.

Found in breach of informativity rule. the side bar. No further communication is wanted. Muted

What is the informativity rule?

🤷🏻‍♀️
But you really are not saying anything controversial.

No KataraJean I'm not am I?

I'm saying LISTEN to women and don't force us to say #metoo before you decide if what we say is worth any merit

But perhaps listening to women, and or indeed women survivors is simply too dangerous a risk to take.

Its the same thing women do all the time - JADE- justify apologise defend and explain. It’s socialised I to us that we are not entitled to say no. Maybe, just maybe, if we have a good enough reason. But it has to be good, and you have to be contrite.

So a woman has to give a reason why she's not Ok with changing next to men. And on the bf/ff threads she has to preface ‘I bottle fed’ with ‘I really wanted to but...’

When what she should be able to say is, quite simply, no

All of this boils down to women not being listened to when we say NO.