I'm so bloody fed up with this

[ofcourseibloodyncd]

It's across the boards of MN

It's across the world IRL

For the record yes I've been the victim of sexual abuse/assault/rape

But I didn't have to be to hold a valid opinion or be taken seriously when I say "as a woman, I feel..."

I've said this on another thread recently

You are dismissed... unless of course you have experienced and admit to certain things having happened to you. Then you may have special kid gloves and sympathetic understanding for your POV

You don't have to sleep with penises if they trigger you and you're a lesbian. It's okay then to say no.

You can feel threatened by men if you have been a victim. It's okay then

You can refuse to get changed/pee/sleep in the same room with men if you've been a victim. It's okay then

You can do lots of things and feel lots of ways - as long as you've been a victim or admit it

But if you don't admit it or you haven't... you are a stupid hysterical overanxious woman

You absolutely cannot feel any way JUST because you are a woman. It just isn't valid.

Stop being naughty women and lying about how you feel. You are wrong!!!

(You're not wrong btw, and you are valid)

Stop making women's feelings only valid if they share their traumatic experiences first to justify them

I'm ranting. Clearly this is aimed mostly at the males (but the attitudes of some women too)

This whole "I only take your desire to be safe from men seriously if you were raped" thing is a very clever method to make sure that men as a group get at least one rape per woman.

I also suspect that in most cases, when simply being a woman isn't enough for them to listen to you, then being a victim also doesn't help.

I recently tried to explain to some people why "someone" (me, but I didn't want to talk about it) might be uncomfortable around transpeople and used the video of transactivists beating up a woman in Hyde Park to show them what I meant. (Because I knew already that murder threats would be argued away with "oh, they're just upset, the poor little dears, they don't mean it")

They went all "Oh, that's just some nasty people, that they're using the word "trans" is total coincidence".

I didn't talk about my own experiences. (Which was just internet murder threats by transpeople who know where I live, so I knew it would not be taken seriously)

Just left.

It wasn't a space that was important to me, so not worth the risk of being explained, in detail, why what happened to me wasn't traumatic enough to justify me being uncomfortable.

The thing with JADE is that as soon as you start to defend something, it makes you feel guilty, even though you have done nothing wrong. And sexual violence already is surrounded by so many feelings of shame and guilt (which come from all the myths which surround it).

And now I get stuck because the only way I can continue what I want to say is to refer to what happened to me. But why should I do that? You know, knowing my abuser, he would get off on the details and how it affected me. Of course he would, otherwise - guess what? - he would not have done it. So whose fantasies are the stories of survivors feeding when they have to recount them to validate their desire for safe space? And - as the OP says - why are they even fodder in this debate/war on women’s same sex spaces.

No should mean no. It is the basis of consent. No explanation, justification or defence. Just no. Every time I tell my story, I give something more of me away. Sometimes that can be empowering, but not if it is in response to someone else not accepting no. Then it is just more of the same.

ofcourseibloodyncd - I've felt pretty shaken up since I read your first couple of posts earlier today. Because that's it, isn't it? Men speak and what they say is accepted. Women have to provide proof/evidence/justification. Or, even better, corroboration by a male or similar authority figure.

Every so often when reading this bit of Mumsnet, I get some clarity. And then along comes another thread, namely yours, and another realisation dawns. That's been my life experience. But it's not actually my fault for not being assertive enough, it's the socialisation that demeans my voice because of my biology.

I do the JADE, I know why just haven’t learnt how break the habit.

Maybe ban certain words that feel like commands ie nice

@kooshbin I'm sorry it shook you up, I was actually in tears myself and raging when I posted this and when I first had it dawn on me in a "OMG I get it" moment on another thread under a different name, it was another poster who'd pointed it out and it chimed SO much.

This is exactly it. Men speak and are accepted. We speak and need to defend and justify before we can be heard. Worse still... what we are expecting to use to justify simply speaking for ourselves is our trauma. Just speaking as a woman should be enough to open ears

Regarding the JADE, perhaps we should do something like training camps where we spend all day roleplaying situations and learning to break the habit.

Or just something for breaking out of female socialisation.

Lots of women try to overcome their internalized misogyny individually, has anyone tried to do it in groups?

Second wave feminism, probably. I always get jealous when I hear what women got up to back then.

Bowl Thank you for JADE. It's good to have a name for what I do and what's expected of me.

Sometimes I want to be a two year old again, asking "Why why why" to burrow deep behind every assertion that women should give in to demands, every assertion that the people demanding are being reasonable, every defence of the assertion.

A male assertion is a statement of fact. A female assertion is bigotry.

JADE- justify apologise defend and explain

That really resonates with me, very much

Thank you. It clarifies stuff.