Girls or co-ed at secondary?

[RiverTam]

DD is year 4 so we're a while off but I'd be really interested to hear people's experiences of their DDs in either girls or mixed secondaries. At the moment we have two not-especially certain options of either a co-ed state school (new but should be very good) or a girls' private (we would have to move house to be near a girls' state school, which is annoying as it's very good but plonked somewhere I don't really want to live. The private is extremely academic so may be no good for DD anyway, but it is local).

I went to a small girls' private school from aged 7 to 17 and came out of it almost unable to speak to boys at all, which caused all sorts of problems for me for a long time - but, obviously, had had no problems with boys at school - by which I mean boys dominating classes, assumptions made by staff, harrassment great or small. None of that.

So I'm unsure what would be best for DD. Me and DH would certainly like her to go to a local school (neither of us did, and didn't have any local friends at all). I see more and more about the number of girls experienced harassment at school, and am concerned about the domination of boys in the classroom. Even smaller things like how few good female parts in plays there are bother me!

So I'm after some wise words from the women of FWR. I know that I am prone to overthinking, and am also indecisive and uncertain about my own convictions half the time!

I have no wise words. Never been to a girls‘ school but I understand the benefits in theory. (In practice I will say that the most obnoxious, bullying and underhanded class mate I had was a girl - I can‘t rule out that she would have been less of a pain, had she not performed for a male audience. The most enduring friendship I forged in school is with a boy - over sports.)
My kid is a boy and I want to keep him in Mixed classes. The guys going to tech-schools (virtually no girls there at the time) that I met at university were all akward. Some nice awkward some horrible awkward, but all awkward.
I never saw this problem with girls from ‚all girls‘ schools, though. You are the first I heard bringing that up.

DD goes to a co-ed comprehensive. I went to a single sex grammar school. Where I live, the best schools, both state and independent, are co-educational, so I didn't really have a single sex option, but I wanted her to be able to go to school with her brother, so would probably have avoided single sex schools in any case.

I didn't have problems taking to boys as a result of my single sex education. I was possibly slightly hampered socially by thinking of girls and women as the default for humans, but I don't think that it was a bad thing that I had no qualms about mysterious women's things to men, and got a bit confused when men offered to carry light things for me.

I do think that in your situation I might consider the single sex school for a DD who showed a strong interest in science or sport - the women I know with careers in science almost all went to single sex schools.

I went to an all girls secondary and want to send my children to a co-ed secondary. My school wasn't the supportive, empowering sisterhood that all girls schools are meant to be, it was horribly bitchy, bullying was rife and I spent a fair bit of time there quite unhappy. I also did a very female dominated hobby which meant I had pretty much zero contact with boys (apart from my own much younger brother) all throughout my teenage years, which meant that by uni and work life I was so awkward around males (and still am a bit), although that might have been the case anyway I guess.

Of course I don't have a co-ed education to compare it with and I know that there are horror stories around boys behaviour towards girls in school as well. But I will be sending my kids to a mixed school.

Broonstick thanks. How is your DD getting on at her co-ed?

Ave I come from a female dominated family and was very shy and did no out-of-school activities so my world was almost entirely female! DD's at a mixed primary and does some mixed clubs so hopefully she won't be so hampered as me, IYSWIM. But she had a bad year last year with regard to some very dominant boisterous boys on her table - when I happened to mention over the holidays that I went to a girls' school she thought this was bloody marvellous.

River then why not just go by her preference?

I went to an all girls school and although experienced problems with friendship groups etc and long standing anxiety caused by high academic expectations I think that was just me - I'd have had a whole set of different issues in mixed.

Reading what goes on in schools now and the rise of phones / porn and general objectification of women and girls, I currently feel VERY strongly in favour of single sex for DD but she's only 4.

Unsurprisingly, I don't feel so strongly for DS but ideally the all boys state school which is just down the road is excellent so that would be my preference. However, if he doesn't get a place there, I'd happily consider mixed.

If DD doesn't get a place in the single sex state, I'd consider downsizing / taking on a 2nd job to pay for the single sex private option instead.

I came out of secondary with a total acceptance that girls could and would do everything and anything, the world was my oyster and I was naively confident of my equal standing in society.

I will be making sure DD is in cubs / scouts etc and currently she really enjoys rugby and football so I'll try to encourage these as out of school activities to socialise with boys if she does end up in single sex.

I did my degree (and post grad degree) in a very male dominated subject - 8 women, 150 odd men. Two of the women came from single sex schools and it was noticeable in our first year that they didn't compete for the best equipment in labs, were a bit over nice when working in a group so would do more than their share rather than pushing back.

If I had a daughter, my preference might be single sex 11-16 as long as the school was still strong in ICT, technology and science.

I had some extremely negative experiences with boys at secondary school. To send a daughter to a mixed school I'd want to be sure that the school took misogyny, sexual harassment and sexist 'banter' seriously. And that it worked proactively to create a culture where girls are safe.

Presumably some schools are good at this and some aren't. Although the statistics for sexual assault of girls at school are terrible overall.

deep because she's 8.

CMO yes, that could be an option.

Dragon yes, I would need to check that out thoroughly. I suppose I have concerns that heads might give these things lip service but not actually follow through, but that could be true of anything.

I have only positive things to say about single sex education. Sure, girls can be a bit mean, but I don’t think that’s any different in a mixed school. Education without the distraction of boys was a good thing IMO.

All depends on the school. DD14 thrives at an all-girls school, after going to a co-ed primary. She’s very lucky, she’s a very quiet, not especially worldly child, doesn’t like much popular culture, hates loud pop music and prefers to sit reading in form time and has had no bullying at all. She’s allowed to just be herself. Despite having amazing academic results it’s not a hot-house, they take children with SEN and the emphasis is about educating the whole person.

I had reservations about all-girls but in today’s climate, I think it’s essential. There’s so much social pressure on girls when boys are in the classroom, not to mention issues of harassment. In a single- sex you find that pastoral support and PSHE is better tailored and the girls emerge with a lot more confidence. Research demonstrates that both sexes do better academically when segregated.

I do understand your point about socialising with boys though, so we make sure she does some co-ed stuff outside of school, like a local youth group and St John Ambulance.

I had a similar problem but that’s because I had one older sister and no cousins or extended family as my parents were both only children so we never socialised with any boys at all. And she can always go to a co-ed 6th form, but 11-16, sex segregated education is best, if you can access it, IMO.

Forgot to say that my DD is also a top performer in Science, it’s her favourite subject. On course for an 8 or 9 in Biology, Chenistry & Physics & wants to do medicine, despite the school not being especially STEM-focused. I don’t know if that would have happened in a mixed-sex comp given that we are all about the humanities in our family & DD isn’t one to assert herself in front of others.

I went to an all girls' school at secondary (late 80's for time context). I found it awful... , cliqueness, bitchiness, suffered horrendous bullying such that I've failed to live up to a fraction of my potential due to rock bottom self esteem, never had a "career" type job. I've had counselling the last couple of years, but it hasn't really touched the sides.

I moved to 6th form college when I was 16. Was sexually harassed by a boy in my physics class. I found it really irritating in the sense of having a bluebottle buzzing angrily around the room, but it didn't affect me psychologically like all those years at school. That's just my perception of the time though, and it's a different kettle of fish today with online bullying, camera phones and internet hardcore porn in the mix.

I would say that you should look for pastoral care and fostering life skills/confidence as the deciding factor, rather than co-ed status or crude exam results. I went to a "good" school on paper... several of my GCSE cohort year went on to Oxbridge, but for me it was the worst fit.

Ok, but if you don‘t feel strongly about it one way or another and these types of schools have good results and these types of schools circumvent the sexual harassment problem that you apparently find regularly in mixed schools and she finds the idea marvelous.... ?

I did not mind going mixed, and went to study in a STEM field afterwards, but then again, I had regular shouting matches with the boys and kind of enjoyed that (could handle it much better than these underhanded behind my back things of my nemesis). Other girls aquiesced and accepted ‚their role’. If she feels strongly in favor of a boy free learning environment, I‘d take it seriously.

Caro that ties in a lot with my thinking. I think a lot of my uncertainty is because we are not firmly in the catchment of any school, good or bad, girls' or mixed. There is a stellar co-ed state school about 2 miles away (with the catchment of about 100 yards, as far as I can tell ) and I'm sure if we were firmly in its catchment I wouldn't bother about any other option. Ditto the girls' state.

But as it is, I have a number of uncertain options that are challenging me in various ways!

I am very much leaning towards single sex, the sexual assault and rape stats for girls at school genuinely terrify me. I was also sexually harrassed and assaulted at secondary school. It would kill me if DD were to go through some of the shit I did.

DD does have some lovely male friends at school, but I worry about secondary, when other schools all essentially merge, DD is no confrontational at all and I really worry she would become a target.
and then i'd be arrested for beating the shit out of a teenage boy

DD is at an all girls school, as I went to an all girls school before her. She is thriving, wide group of friends, has boys in other groups outside of school.

For me the two most important things are the encouragement of girls to excel in the sciences and the lack of sexual harrassment.

My local comprehensive is not a nice place to be a girl, there is unwanted touching in the busy corridors, sexual language used to and about women and girls, the inappropriate use of phone cameras, early pressures to be sexual, distribution and consumption of pornographic material openly.

A lot of it started in primary school, my daughter was exposed to pornography and sexual language in year 6 via her classmates in the playground. Too many parents gave their children (boys predominantly in this instance) smart phones with no restriction on content/website or times. Those smartphones went into school with the children who delighted in showing ‘prudish’ or ‘childish’ girls inappropriate material on them.

I wanted to give my daughter at least five years without that.

I went to a girls' school until O-levels (showing my age). I didn't find it bitchy or cliquey, and we were all strongly encouraged to explore our abilities in all subjects especially STEM.

With all the scary shit about sexual assault and porn in secondary schools these days, I'm definitely inclined towards a girls' school for my DDs. Problem is that there isn't one anywhere nearby.

I feel really strongly about DD being in a co-Ed school. I went to a girls school and although I was perfectly happy I don’t feel that it gave me any special advantage. Funnily enough I’m much more comfortable with boys only schools than I am with girls schools. Would happily have sent DS boys only but actively avoided girls only for DD

I don’t recognise any descriptions of bullying from boys or a feeling of not being as good as the boys or feelings of being inferior. On the contrary what I see from my kids being in a co-Ed secondary is a sense of equality, a sense that they’re on an absolute equal standing to the boys. More girls than boys take triple science for example. The children are treated entirely on their own merits and every door is open to them.

Socially, they have strong friendships with both boys and girls, I’m not aware of sexualisation and I think it’s much more reflective of real life.

On a personal level, I feel very strongly that having the presence of boys, and having very natural relationships with them has meant that my daughter in particularly has been able to escape from some of the less lovely behaviour and nastiness of some of the girls. Although to be fair, her female friends are a pretty good bunch. She simply hasn’t got involved with it as her friendships aren’t reliant on it.

I think a lot of it is about the ethos of the school & finding the right fit for your child. Where I live there are a lot of single-sex independent schools that I wouldn’t touch with a barge-pole. Not because they are terrible schools but they just wouldn’t be right for my DD’s personality though I may revisit for one of my other children.

It depends on the individual school and pupil - no school will suit every child. If the choice was an exceptional mixed school vs poorly performing single sex, I'd go for mixed.

However, all things being equal, I'd I had daughters, I would prefer them to go to a single sex school. I went to a single sex school, and I think we missed out on quite a lot of sexism, and were encouraged in maths and sciences. I saw boys out of school at swimming club and other activities. Half my 6th form classes were at the boys school (that depended partly on subjects.) There were joint activities like language exchanges and school plays. And by 6th form, we all went to the pub together - it's not like when my father was at school in the '50s; if he saw his sister in the street, wasn't allowed to say hello, as they were forbidden to speak to girls while in uniform.

Keep forgetting points sorry. When my DD was in coed it was all about ‘boyfriends’ from Year 5 and she felt very alienated as she wasn’t in to all that.

Also because she was studious and well-behaved she also got put in a class to balance out the boisterous boys. Her verdict is that she much prefers single sex & wants to stay for 6th form. If I can do it for my other children I would prefer to, but we might not have the choice.

I've taught in all 3 types of school. The all-girls school was fabulous and the girls flourished and thrived in a supportive atmosphere (but I'm aware that not all of them are like that).

I attended a massive mixed comprehensive (back in the 70s!) and was crap at talking to boys until I got to university, where I found a boyfriend in my first week and stayed with him for three years (so didn't make much progress with the talking to men plural issue).

My view: let your daughter have a strong voice in this, but explore all the possibilities with her and visit the schools on your shortlist, talking to as many girls there as possible about strengths and weaknesses of their schools.