Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cambridge college converting loos to gender neutral: info needed

27 replies

FatherBuzzCagney · 25/11/2018 20:33

A friend says that the Cambridge college where she is a fellow is looking at converting some of the loos to gender neutral - only the ones without urinals, apparently, so just the women's loos Hmm She's not happy about this and would like to know what the legal position is on the configuration of 'gender neutral' loos: cubicle walls and doors have to be floor to ceiling, I think, but not sure about anything else. Could someone point me in the right direction for the info?

OP posts:
KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18 · 25/11/2018 20:49

Someone else will probably be able to direct you to more pertinent info than me but get her to watch this as a palate cleanser for the issue.

crsacre · 25/11/2018 21:12

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

"separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside."

Blanketbox · 25/11/2018 21:27

Basically the cubicles have to be self-contained mini rooms, including sink. But not sure if that’s only if they’re getting rid of all women’s loos?

KenDoddsDadsDogsDead18 · 25/11/2018 21:31

Are you sure that doesn't apply to schools rather than colleges? I thought with colleges or workplaces it was more about quantity/ratios, with women being allocated more toilets than men.

More than happy to be corrected!

Fantasisa · 25/11/2018 21:35

I heard about that College - apparently not everyone is keen but the undergrads have asked for it.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 25/11/2018 21:42

Just done a quick google expecting it to be my old college. But it seems they changed to gender neutral loos in 2017 so maybe not them! Now I’m confused!

(Mine is the one that used to have a hammer and sickle in the bar)

BevBrook · 25/11/2018 21:42

I assumed it was that one too Mumoftwo...

maniacmagpie · 26/11/2018 02:32

This is happening across a lot of colleges. Cambridge University Student Union (CUSU) LGBT+ are pushing for it as part of their 'Why Gender Neutral?' campaign. This is not going to be an isolated thing at all. It is part of a co-ordinated campaign.

In theory it's not up to the students, but the way I've seen it articulated by a friend is this: the college can look progressive but try to fob off the responsibility by saying 'well we asked the college community...' in my college, what happened was the undergrads petitioned college, college asked the 'wider community', they did a survey and now no word. Apparently saying that 'well you should report assault! no incidents happened when we tried it in this other college!' is enough to cover the privacy question.

Sorry, I know this doesn't help much, except to maybe clear up people's confusion over which college it could be. It could be a lot of them.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/11/2018 08:12

Do the undergraduates really want that? Or just a vocal minority? Perhaps given the toxicity of the debate, and the importance of democracy, and inclusivity your friend could organise an anonymous vote for all of the students (using bits of paper into a ballot box so it can't be rigged). Id be willing to bet that most don't want mixed sex toilets...

ChiaraRimini · 26/11/2018 09:30

They already have them in Kings, signed as "cubicles" and "cubicles and urinals" Angry I have been to a couple of events there where they caused everyone to double take and mutter about PC gone mad-but I suspect most people were unaware of the reason behind it.

Namenic · 26/11/2018 09:38

Most of my college’s showers/toilets in old courts and in college houses are gender neutral. But they tend to be lockable self contained rooms. I was on a corridor with 3 boys in my 1st year with 1 self contained women’s toilet and mixed showers with lockable cubicles - not floor to ceiling but high enough. Thought it was a bit odd but had no issue and no one I knew was complaining.

FatherBuzzCagney · 26/11/2018 11:03

the one that used to have a hammer and sickle in the bar

I very much doubt that's something that this college ever had in the bar, unless there was a picture of Thatcher wiping her arse on it!

Thanks everyone, that's all helpful.

the cubicles have to be self-contained mini rooms, including sink

Is that definitely correct? My understanding is that cublicles have to have floor-ceiling walls and door, but do they also have to include sinks? That would make the conversion of most loos completely impractical, I would have thought.

Given the rampant problems of sexual harrassment and assult in colleges, why on earth even the wokest of students (and yes, it is being driven by the students) thinks this is a good idea is completely beyond me.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 26/11/2018 11:11

Have they completed an impact assessment? It would stop women such as those from conservative Muslim and Jewish faiths using the new toilets.

Why aren't they converting men's toilets instead?

FatherBuzzCagney · 26/11/2018 11:29

Thanks you, that's an excellent question about impact assessment.

Yes, I wondered that.

OP posts:
Grauniad · 26/11/2018 12:57

Given the rampant problems of sexual harrassment and assult in colleges, why on earth even the wokest of students (and yes, it is being driven by the students) thinks this is a good idea is completely beyond me.

If sexual harassment is a big problem, it's coming from some of the students.

Maybe it's being driven by the ones who want to do the harassing, plus the ones who haven't yet been harassed and therefore naively think it doesn't happen.

Manderleyagain · 26/11/2018 13:00

OP have you seen Magpie's thread? She is at a Cambridge college which is proposing to go gender neutral loos. She has tried to put the opposing views but I think she's on her own as a student amongst the woke.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374728-Call-for-gender-critical-people-in-Cambridge-UK

It comes up a bit into the thread.

maniacmagpie · 26/11/2018 14:29

ItsAllGoingToBeFine anonymous voting is how it should work, but unfortunately I don't see it working with a fellow organising it. Roughly how it works is this:

  • CUSU is a student organisation separate to the colleges, with their own agendas, but they campaign and organise across the whole university
  • students have their own spaces and committees within colleges where they discuss how they 'as the student body' want to operate. Sometimes they take suggestions from CUSU or respond to CUSU's campaign - in this case, gender neutral toilets
  • fellows are academic staff and may not necessarily interact with students, particularly undergraduates. Some have roles to do with students (tutors, Director of Studies within subjects, etc) but on the whole do not get involved in things like this - they facilitate the spaces where the students have their discussions and politics, but do not 'get involved' in the politics. This is why I don't think a fellow would be able to organise a ballot. It has to come from the students, and if there is no student daring to raise a GC view it doesn't get heard, if the vote is open (so people know if you're dissenting) then there is peer pressure to conform, and so on
  • In theory college does not have to do anything that the students ask for, but as per my earlier post I suspect they would try to wash their hands of responsibility and try to please its students, despite being responsible for impact assessments

In this context, a fellow trying to organise a ballot would probably be rejected as interfering excessively with student politics. Even telling them that really, ballot like this should be secret to avoid peer pressure, would probably be seen as interfering. They are responsible for academic and pastoral care, however, and if your friend is a tutor or holds some position, she would be able to support a student coming to her with concerns about freedom of speech and peer pressure, and champion the viewpoint that way. I reconnected with my Senior Tutor (primarily responsible for over-arching care of undergrads) recently, and don't envy his position in needing to stay neutral while supporting people's right to speak out even if he privately disagrees. He was, and remains, very good at it.

Another precedent that I saw in my college was the issue of raising the rainbow flag. Students campaigned across colleges to raise or show the rainbow flag during LGBT history month in the last couple of years, and encountered varying degrees of resistance. The arguments against showing any flag anywhere visible to the public is that it would be the college who are seen as endorsing a viewpoint and that they show no other flags except the crest (and maybe the Union Jack on royal visits??? I forget).

The LGBT flag issue, like the Gender Neutral toilet campaign, was made very difficult as soon as one college complied, because then there is pressure because students are pointing to other colleges and saying look how progressive they are, this is simply a statement of support, why do you hate the LGBT community.

These campaigns as I see it are winning by framing disagreement and an absence of visible support as an attack rather than neutrality. By the point of the flag issue I'd become disillusioned with the realisation that so many marching under the rainbow had arse-all to do with same-sex love or dysphoric transsexuals that I no longer saw it as an attack on myself or my LGBT friends - but I have friends who still did, and I do sympathise with that viewpoint even if I find it ultimately a misguided reaction. The student body will see excessive outside interference as an attack on them. Frankly, that's not college's problem. We need students to fight that from the inside (believe me, I'm trying...).

At the end of the day, whatever they might say about the mood of the college community, if a sexual assault or voyeurism or filming, by a male on a female happens in a mixed toilet which does not comply with the law and does not afford reasonable privacy, and we can reasonably argue that the endorsement of this attitude by college enabled said male, will they suffer for it?

Or will they still try to brush it off as 'nothing stops this male going in without the labelling so it's not our fault'?

(My particular college is only discussing one set. There are still other single-sex toilets and there are quite a few single-occupant toilets scattered over the college too. I did not get involved in the argument within the undergraduate body, as I am a grad student, until it was targeted to the 'wider college community'. As I said it is framed as a gesture of support for the political viewpoint of 'I am who I say I am', and so I argued it is also clear gesture of dismissal for the opposing viewpoint 'my needs are based on material sex'. Don't know where that whole thing went, don't think I did a terribly good job in the argument, which was only seen by grads in the end, and I annoyed college by asking who was responsible for what. I live and learn...)

FatherBuzzCagney · 26/11/2018 15:04

Just to clarify: this is an issue over which the college (i.e. the fellowship), not students, have the say. The initiative has come from students but the decision rests with the college authorities. My friend thinks that concerns will be taken seriously by college senior management and other fellows, but that they may well not be fully informed about the issues.

OP posts:
maniacmagpie · 26/11/2018 15:35

I fear that this could devolve into an 'us vs them' issue very easily. Obviously I can only speak for what I've seen, but I could definitely see a lot of students dismissing the attitude of fellows as a generational thing. They'd probably try to frame it as 'old conservative people standing in the way of progress'.

I don't really have a solution to that aspect except to keep fighting students on their own terms and to encourage students to be able to speak out. The dismissal of the possibility of sexual assault as 'no one has said anything' is so enraging on the heels of #metoo. It's like as soon as someone says the magic words 'transphobia' we are allowed to forget what we were talking about two seconds ago.

I'm not trying to say fellows shouldn't oppose it - the opposite. I'm simply musing on the response by the students driving these proposals, which could be be not a change in attitude but a doubling down (I think that very likely). The culture needs to be fought from the inside by students too.

FatherBuzzCagney · 26/11/2018 16:20

They'd probably try to frame it as 'old conservative people standing in the way of progress'.

I doubt most of the fellows would give the slightest shit, to be honest. Undergrads often seem to have a very distorted view of the extent to which academics and non-academic management really care about what they think - they'd have a nasty shock if they heard what academics at Cambridge (or elsewhere) say in private.

If something students want has an obvious upside and no obvious financial or other downside then they'll probably agree to it; if not, then not. The issue in this case is that the decision-makers don't seem to be (sufficiently) aware of the downsides - yet. If they are given information that helps them understand the problems, then they are quite likely to rethink, however much the students roll their eyes and stamp their feet.

OP posts:
maniacmagpie · 26/11/2018 16:43

That's good, because you shouldn't give the slightest shit. I would go so far as to say that they'd be shocked at what academics say as soon as they're about three metres away. It was very interesting flipping through from undergrad to grad and being immediately privy to the other side of things.

I'm very glad that fellows are involved in the discussion and reaching out to decision-makers. I have been a bit caught up in student politics and it's good to remember that that's what it is - student politics.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 26/11/2018 22:30

I very much doubt that's something that this college ever had in the bar, unless there was a picture of Thatcher wiping her arse on it!

That narrows it down a bit. One thing that always makes me laugh about Cambridge is that you have the red constituency in central Cambridge completely surrounded by a total sea of blue! Very left wing students who then graduate, stay nearby, start earning lots and suddenly move to the right faster than a speeding bullet!

MrGHardy · 26/11/2018 22:53

" only the ones without urinals, apparently, so just the women's loos "

AngryAngryAngry

As always. That even at Cambridge the stupidity that comes with woke is too big to see the irony in having men's toilets and "neutral" ones, but no women's...

Oakmaiden · 26/11/2018 23:14

Swansea University have some Mixed Gender loos. Most of them are your usual male or female ones though.

Lots of people use them on the basis they are closest to the most used classrooms...

WombOfOnesOwn · 26/11/2018 23:49

Suddenly picturing a protest action with "WOMEN" spelled out in used maxi pads on the door of the "cubicles only" restroom."