No title for this really. or possibly "Being an angry or sad woman in public?"

[ManHatingfeministType]

I’m a university student and in one of my classes today we were discussing ‘gender equality’ with a heavy emphasis on the #metoo movement. The reading material also mentioned Fathers4Justice as a milestone in gender equality.

So in the actual seminar today. We had a few young men make the point that of course, we shouldn't expect men to go to jail very often for sexual assault when it’s just “he said/she said”. Men get their lives ruined by the #metoo movement with no justice. And I really liked “Do you even know how many women get custody after a divorce, the numbers are ridiculously high, as a feminist you should want men to be equal parents”. This was after I made the point that Fathers4Justice was not a milestone of gender equality and it was run by abusive men who’d lost their children due to being unfit fathers. This was met with “whoa!! Huge generalization” etc. I found myself being quite sweary, not at anyone, but sort of like “father4justice are fucking mental and basically a terrorist organization who have made sustained attacks on female MPs”. or words to that effect.

Yes, I know women tend to get custody after a divorce. This is because women tend to do all the work before a divorce and the courts aren’t just going to give custody to a man trying to avoid paying maintenance. Fathers4justice have been involved in hate campaigns directed at female MPs. Including climbing their houses, surveillance, stalking, death threats, secret filming has shown them in the past talking about abusing their partners. The man who started it admits freely he was a drunk deadbeat dad who didn’t show up to custody arrangements because they conflicted with his social life..but also thinks it was unfair for his ex to stop him seeing the kids. I did try to explain to the young man that all women want men to be equal fathers because it means, quite frankly, less work for them. Single parenthood is shit. No one wants to have no one to rely on.

Rape accusations unfortunately do not ruin a man's life and we have many many celebrities proving that daily.

I just found myself getting more and more ranty and angry.

When I got home I sent an email to my seminar tutor apologising to her for getting so upset and being obnoxious.

I’m really ashamed for getting angry and loud and yes, a bit sweary. But, in a class of normal size it is impossible for them to assume that some of the women have not been victims of male violence. Rape, sexual assault, domestic violence, child abuse. In fact, from discussing it, and from my own history, I know for a fact that women in the class have suffered all of the above.

So teenage males having a bit of a thought experiment about something that doesn’t affect them at all while the women in the room have to remain calm. Well, it seems unfair and it did make me furious.

I’m not asking for trigger warning etc, #metoo is a trigger warning in itself. It seems trigger warnings are just a way for women to be told to take their emotion and leave the room if their baggage will affect anyone.

I don’t really have a point btw, I just wanted to vent a bit and see if anyone had any thoughts?

I agree with you and I’m proud of you (sorry if that sounds patronising) for standing up for your beliefs! There was no need to apologise.

I think the tutor should be doing something to help the guys see that their assumptions are just assumptions, not reality.
If the session was a barrage of male entitlement it's not surprising you feel as you do.

What was your tutor's input into this seminar?

I wouldn’t have apologised. A seminar is the perfect place to get shouty and sweaty. It will remind everyone that is is not just abstract theory.

The tutor is lovely and I really like her actually. She's about my age, I'm mid thirties. I'm significantly older than the rest of the class and a mother. Hence little time for Fathers4Justice.. I think she was trying to give the teenage boys men room to discuss their opinions without feeling they couldn't speak.

I wrote her yesterday but heard nothing back and now I'm feeling quite worried that I was very out of order.

Oh and thank you for the responses. I feel like the yoof in my class probably thought I have lost my mind.

In fairness to them they probably don't remember Fathers4Justice. ((whispers)) they were born in 2000. There are actual literal adults who were born in 2000 now. it's upsetting. I know.

But, in a class of normal size it is impossible for them to assume that some of the women have not been victims of male violence. Rape, sexual assault, domestic violence, child abuse. In fact, from discussing it, and from my own history, I know for a fact that women in the class have suffered all of the above.

Did you make that point to them? It can be really powerful. Not singling out individual women. But saying to a man - women in this room, women who are your friends and peers, have dealt with and are dealing with this shit, and then sitting here politely listening to you whinge that it’s not fair on their oppressors and abusers, because we’re conditioned to be nice and put everyone else’s needs and feelings first. Check yourself mate, basically.

You’re spot on with equal parenting (and caregiving in general) being a feminist aim btw.

Did you make that point to them? It can be really powerful.

I didn't unfortunately, I wish I had done. I'm very good at thinking of things after everyone has left the room

I think she was trying to give the teenage boys men room to discuss their opinions without feeling they couldn't speak.

Somehow I doubt they'd be feeling that and I'm quite sure none of them are now wondering if they were out of order.
If they don't remember fathers for justice they should be open to learning from someone who does.

You were not the least bit out of order.

I wouldn’t feel bad either (well I probably would, at least very worked up!) but the fact is you/we SHOULDN’T.
As said above, I highly doubt they’re worried about whether they said the wrong thing.
Good for you, the boys probably didn’t give a shit, but hopefully you inspired the girls

"The reading material also mentioned Fathers4Justice as a milestone in gender equality. "

this jumped out at me. What on earth was the reading material?!

don't worry about what you said. I would be more concerned with how the tutor handled the session and the issues of facts around Fathers 4 Justice not being known.

It was a timeline of main events in "Gender equality" cough cough. Starting with A Vindication of the Rights of Women in 1792 up to the date of publication.

Obviously, both things are of equal importance and Mary Wollstonecraft isn't turning in her grave at the thought of being mentioned in the same timeline.

As said above, I highly doubt they’re worried about whether they said the wrong thing. Good for you, the boys probably didn’t give a shit, but hopefully you inspired the girls

Maybe, but I think at the girls' age I'd have probably been embarrassed for me and thinking keep it together woman! I obviously wouldn't feel that way now about another woman (but do feel that way about myself annoyingly)

Fathers4Justice an equality milestone? This is the lot who planned to kidnap Tony & Cherie Blair's son Leo. Good role models.

My brother was divorced a few years ago. It’s my understanding is it’s no longer the case that women always get custody. The court starts from a 50:50 basis.

I wonder why you got so upset?
Was the discussion a respectful one with both sides listening to the other’s points without interruption? Or did you feel shouted down?
Were you the only one defending your point of view or were you supported?

Fathers4Justice an equality milestone? This is the lot who planned to kidnap Tony & Cherie Blair's son Leo. Good role models.

Didn't know about that one! Somehow unsurprised.

My brother was divorced a few years ago. It’s my understanding is it’s no longer the case that women always get custody. The court starts from a 50:50 basis.

I believe that is the case unless there is good reason not to. The young man arguing with me about F4J was under the impression that several of his male family members were being denied access due to meaness on the part of the court.

Were you the only one defending your point of view or were you supported?

With the #metoo conversations around sexual assault yes, I was supported but I would say only by the women. With regards to F4J literally, no one seemed to know anything about them which I was very surprised by. The tutor didn't give much away but she hasn't got children so they may have been less visible to her. Their antics were frequently discussed on MN for example.

I'm a mature student, a 38 year old mother amongst 24 year old adults. Due to my course we discuss very heavy and emotive subjects, and I have lost my shit about stuff before, my tutors are all younger than me. I never apologise though because I'm right

The frustrating thing is that having direct experiences and having 'been' there as it was, makes you a little more impassioned

I never apologise though because I'm right

I need to be like that. This should be my New year's resolution this year! As it is I'm anxiously awaiting an email from my tutor and hoping it says I'm fine and I'm welcome back next week!

“I believe that is the case unless there is good reason not to. The young man arguing with me about F4J was under the impression that several of his male family members were being denied access due to meaness on the part of the court. ”

Ah yes! To hear my brother talk, you’d think he was whiter than snow, a paragon father and husband and the court was biased totally, mediation was a waste of time and didn’t listen... oh, yes

I’ve stayed in touch with my SIL. She has quite a different tale to tell. A tale of pushes and stairs, tempers, gaslighting and abuse. It bears out my memory of him when we were children.

We're just socialised to worry when we deviate from the social norm expected of women. But fuck that shit, time to rise I say

I’ve stayed in touch with my SIL. She has quite a different tale to tell. A tale of pushes and stairs, tempers, gaslighting and abuse. It bears out my memory of him when we were children.

It probably means so much to her that you've stayed in contact. It's easy for families of abusers to not see what their sons/brothers are capable of. I'm sorry you had first hand knowledge of his behaviour though.

Mumsnet can you clarify what I have said that breached the guidelines. You've deleted two posts on this thread, one mine and on belonging to another poster. I don't know/remember what the other one said, but I'm certain none of mine have been controversial?

I would raise eyebrows if someone was raising their voice in a work type discussion, male or female, as it's never been the norm in the industries I've worked in for anyone to do that.
I can maybe one case of a senior woman losing her temper and swearing and maybe one or two of a senior man, and both times caused a few raised eyebrows and sniggers behing their backs.
So yes, I would be embarrased and apologise but I don't think it's anything to do with female socialisation, just expected norms.