No title for this really. or possibly "Being an angry or sad woman in public?"

[ManHatingfeministType]

I’m a university student and in one of my classes today we were discussing ‘gender equality’ with a heavy emphasis on the #metoo movement. The reading material also mentioned Fathers4Justice as a milestone in gender equality.

So in the actual seminar today. We had a few young men make the point that of course, we shouldn't expect men to go to jail very often for sexual assault when it’s just “he said/she said”. Men get their lives ruined by the #metoo movement with no justice. And I really liked “Do you even know how many women get custody after a divorce, the numbers are ridiculously high, as a feminist you should want men to be equal parents”. This was after I made the point that Fathers4Justice was not a milestone of gender equality and it was run by abusive men who’d lost their children due to being unfit fathers. This was met with “whoa!! Huge generalization” etc. I found myself being quite sweary, not at anyone, but sort of like “father4justice are fucking mental and basically a terrorist organization who have made sustained attacks on female MPs”. or words to that effect.

Yes, I know women tend to get custody after a divorce. This is because women tend to do all the work before a divorce and the courts aren’t just going to give custody to a man trying to avoid paying maintenance. Fathers4justice have been involved in hate campaigns directed at female MPs. Including climbing their houses, surveillance, stalking, death threats, secret filming has shown them in the past talking about abusing their partners. The man who started it admits freely he was a drunk deadbeat dad who didn’t show up to custody arrangements because they conflicted with his social life..but also thinks it was unfair for his ex to stop him seeing the kids. I did try to explain to the young man that all women want men to be equal fathers because it means, quite frankly, less work for them. Single parenthood is shit. No one wants to have no one to rely on.

Rape accusations unfortunately do not ruin a man's life and we have many many celebrities proving that daily.

I just found myself getting more and more ranty and angry.

When I got home I sent an email to my seminar tutor apologising to her for getting so upset and being obnoxious.

I’m really ashamed for getting angry and loud and yes, a bit sweary. But, in a class of normal size it is impossible for them to assume that some of the women have not been victims of male violence. Rape, sexual assault, domestic violence, child abuse. In fact, from discussing it, and from my own history, I know for a fact that women in the class have suffered all of the above.

So teenage males having a bit of a thought experiment about something that doesn’t affect them at all while the women in the room have to remain calm. Well, it seems unfair and it did make me furious.

I’m not asking for trigger warning etc, #metoo is a trigger warning in itself. It seems trigger warnings are just a way for women to be told to take their emotion and leave the room if their baggage will affect anyone.

I don’t really have a point btw, I just wanted to vent a bit and see if anyone had any thoughts?

in a class of normal size it is impossible for them to assume that some of the women have not been victims of male violence.

I've seen this attitude so many times. Its a purely theoretical exercise for some people, and they are unable to connect it with the fact that for others its their constant reality and lived experience.

The deleted posts referenced legal allegations that caused a mens rights group to split about 10 years ago.

Apparently, my comment that actual adults were born in 2000 was ageist. I was joking about how old I was. Not making fun of the young.

Xpost, I had wondered that upstart, but they've emailed me to tell me I was ageist.

Thanks for getting in touch.

We received some reports about the posts being ageist - we definitely understand your concerns about the issue at hand but ageist generalisations break our talk guidelines.

We hope you understand.

Best wishes,
MNHQ

And I pointed out that if you were born in 2000 you couldn't remember what F4J got up to. That's not ageist it's factual. A 6 year old wouldn't have been that up on current affairs (or would they, is that ageist?)

Thanks for reinstating MN. I wasn't being unkind, I'm just shocked that Y2K was 18 years ago it wasn't

Oh and my tutor has just messaged me to tell me I am not a dick Thanks everyone.

Phew.

I too was a mature student and remember empassioned arguments with younger members of my cohort. It is very frustrating being told off by some arrogant kid nearly half your age who hasn’t experienced the world as an adult, and who seemingly has absorbed every single toxic bit of sexist stereotyping the world has to offer. I was lucky in the fact that my main tutors were sympathetic. One a second wave feminist and the other married to a feminist academic. It always upset me though. It’s not nice having people lining up against you telling you that you’re wrong and that your stupid/paranoid/over reacting, insert appropriate word. I never ever apologised though. I never apologise for being right.

OP statistically speaking the other, younger women in your group will come to learn that you’re exactly correct in time. As for the blokes, probably not, unfortunately, but that’s not your fault and it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t speak the truth to them. Don’t beat yourself up. It’s hardly surprising that you got upset, you’re not alone in that, I assure you. Once the rose tinted specs are off it’s very hard to deal with denial, no matter who it’s coming from.

OP I'm also a mature student and (thankfully at times) distance so I don't have to deal with situations like those.

I think we need to think about these things longer term. Perhaps the younger women were thinking badly of you but perhaps some were remembering what happened with their mothers. Perhaps too some of them, sadly, will remember your impassioned words in years to come when they have to deal with a "poor, misunderstood father" they're divorcing themselves.

My first round at uni had two mature students in one of my classes. I remember them well and while we had nothing in common really, they did leave an impression.

Don't apologise when you don't believe you're wrong. Men don't.

it's not just boys/men who have this opinion about the courts - it's a message that young women have taken on board too. My daughter and I had an equivalent argument just the other night.

She's a sensible, intelligent young woman of 16, yet she believes that men are hard done by in the courts when it comes to access to children.

I explained that courts start at 50/50 and then adjust based on a number of factors including how much time each parent has. But that courts never take time away from either parent unless there is very good reason.

I also had to point out that if she was younger, she would be spending 50% of the time with the father that she currently refuses to see. And I wouldn't be able to do a single thing about it as I could not prove his abuse.

F4J, allegedly, believes that MN promotes "gender hatred". Whatever that is.

Still playing thought police, I guess. Sad gits.

Your "tutor" should have chaired the discussion effectively, and challenged and probed the views expressed, not sat back and let it descend into a shouting match. Not your fault at all.

You are in a formal educational setting, not the S.U bar. There is a difference.

I'm sorry that you got so worked up. Sign of the tutor doing sweet f a. Debate is healthy. A shouting match isn't. A tutor needs to direct and channel discussions and challenge viewpoints. Everyone's.

Leaving a student to get het up and think it is her fault is just shitty tutoring. I wish that I could have stopped you apologising.

An able tutor does not leave it to another student to take the flack when a debate gets heated and out of hand. Badly run session by the sounds of it, and not due to anything that you said or did OP.
Proud of you for speaking up

Ah, tutor messaged you to say that you are not a dick.
I'd like to message the tutor to give my own views

Thanks everyone, very interesting to hear from other mature students. I know there are other mature students on my course but they are early twenties and I feel quite ancient by comparison.

it's not just boys/men who have this opinion about the courts - it's a message that young women have taken on board too. My daughter and I had an equivalent argument just the other night.

I even see it on MN from adult women. Usually, the reason they have for their husband not paying maintenance to any of his previous kids. The courts are so obviously biased against women in every way, why would they be biased for women on this occasion if it wasn't for safe guarding reasons.

F4J, allegedly, believes that MN promotes "gender hatred". Whatever that is

Is gender hatred the same as "hatred of total twats that don't pay child maintenance" because I have got that, it is true.

Your "tutor" should have chaired the discussion effectively, and challenged and probed the views expressed, not sat back and let it descend into a shouting match. Not your fault at all.

Thanks Birdseye, to be fair on her she probably was trying and I was probably not seeming like a wilting wallflower who needed intervention Her email was really nice and made me feel much better.

I might send some feedback to the course convenor though, so the lecturers can pick up that F4J are revolting humans at the related lecture if they choose to use the piece in the future.

OP, whenever I read something like this, I always think of a (now very old) blog on the subject of intellectual men waxing lyrical on feminism. Here's an extract:

There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.

I'm guessing you'll understand exactly where she's coming from

On the subject of F4J, I remember very well when they declared war on Mumsnet - and loads of them set up accounts here to say horrible things about single mothers ("they're only in it for the maintenance or benefits" or whatever) - and the end result was Matt O'Connor being arrested for inexplicably trying to burn his underpants in M&S Oxford Street.

They decided to focus their ire on M&S for advertising here. "Pants to M&S" was the strapline, I believe. Because Mumsnet was 'anti-male' apparently. All that ensued was Matt stripping naked, and being arrested. Unbelievable huh?

It was all faintly embarrassing to witness, and didn't get the press attention that Matt wanted at all.

I think often these men just don't get it until it is spelled out to them. They have no frame of reference bar their own which is informed by not being subjugated.

My OH is generally kind and considerate, but I've had to spell these issues out to him, most notably when he couldn't see the problem with Kavanaugh. He's always shocked and a bit guilty when finally understanding why these things matter and how they affect women. These 18 year olds are new to the adult world, they've never had to deal with it (she says, as an impending mature student at the ripe old age of 24 but with disproportionate life experience) so unless someone they will listen to says step by step 'these are the bits you aren't understanding' they just won't change.

So well done speaking up. I hope they listen.

I probably would have engaged in a vigorous discussion too.

On the other hand, they are 18 year old young people and this is the process of them becoming educated and more aware of the world. They are not going to arrive at university fully formed.

I'm a mature student too and considerably older than you! I was astonished when I joined tutorials how similar they were to tutorials i had more than 30 years ago. Men completely dominating the discussions and feeling incredibly confident to express really ill-informed views. I shouldn't have been surprised but i was! I hoped we might have moved on a bit . . .

Mumsnet can you clarify

I think you'd need to contact them as they won't see your question without you @'ing them. If you quoted a post that was deleted, they'll have deleted your post for the quotation rather than your content, IYSWIM.

ToeToToe

OP, whenever I read something like this, I always think of a (now very old) blog on the subject of intellectual men waxing lyrical on feminism. Here's an extract:

There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.

Oh god, this describes perfectly a very heated discussion I had with a friend's husband about the pornification of teens and he was arguing theory while I was ranting and raving arguing for the real life girls, and boys, who are being devastated by this culture. It's soul destroying.

Op, you sound like a passionate, articulate woman. Well done for standing your corner.

www.redonline.co.uk/red-women/news-in-brief/a24438991/why-its-good-to-see-red/

Good article thanks Helena, definitely one to read.
I particularly liked, " you are never too old to rage".
Wise words.