Advice: Boyfriend Slut Shaming

[k1632225]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so apologies if anything is unclear. I'm coming here as I would really like some advice/material/general thoughts on something that happened a few weeks ago.

A little info about me: I'm 23 and have been in a v happy relationship with my boyfriend for a year now.

While on holiday a few weeks back I was showing my boyfriend pictures from a previous holiday I went on (when we were not together). One picture was just before a friend and I were going on a night out and I was wearing short denim shorts. Immediately he reacted to the picture saying that I looked 'slutty'. I was really taken back by the comment, mainly because throughout our relationship he hasn't once made a misogynist comment or ever spoken about me in a derogatory way. I went on the defense straight away saying that I didn't agree at all with what he had just said. He came back with, well from a guys point of view, compared to girls who aren't wearing shorts that reveal half of their arse, I looked like a slut. I was really hurt, and surprised and the conversation stopped there. I'm not very good at dealing with conflict but knew I wasn't happy with how this had gone so later on, in a more appropriate setting (this initial interchange happened on a tour bus in Iceland) I brought it up again.

I said that I was really hurt that he had called me a slut. He said that he hadn't called me a slut, rather said I looked like one and that was different. He went on to reiterate his view point again about how on a night out, men would see a girl wearing less clothes as easy/more slutty, compared to a girl wearing say jeans.

My main argument point was that I don't care what men think of how I dress. I was wearing those shorts for myself because I thought I looked good. I said that he was feeding a rape culture that women are owned by men, and that everything we do is for the attention of a man. I said that it is incorrect to infer the history of someones sexual past by what they are wearing (i.e. inferring that I've slept with lots of men just because I am wearing short shorts). And lastly said I was in a hot country and therefore wearing shorts were appropriate (not that it should matter what country I am in).

He said he understood and did believe that I wasn't wearing the shorts for other men, but said regardless I was going to attract male attention, and because I moan about 'creepy men' on nights out, questioned why would I wear this type of clothing.

I can't really recall how the conversation ended - I think it was him basically not understanding my points and me feeling hurt and disagreeing with his. I felt annoyed and ignored him for a good hour (lol) but realised we were on holiday so we agreed to postpone this discussion until we returned.

I should note that I'm often not good at verbalising myself in emotive situations and do struggle to say what I want to say unless I have thought about it prior - which is why I'd really appreciate any of your thoughts, so that when I can bring this up I have discussion points I can provide him.

My boyfriend is very open to discussion and wanted to get my point of view and understand why I was so hurt by this comment, he was not aggressive in any way, and I do feel if I can get him to see why his comment/line of thinking is not ok, he would learn from it.

Thanks in advance!!!

I don't know. If he's been not-otherwise-offensive in a whole year, I think people here are being a bit hard on him. There is such a thing as absorbed attitudes, absorbed unthinkingly, that are bad but don't mean the human being carrying them is bad.

The thing is to get him to think about the implications of the mindset. It's the same as the one that puts women in burkas, and yet somehow it never results in good treatment of women. That's because it's not up to women to get men to behave. That's up to men. It's important to stop thinking that way because it's a mindset that's a) doesn't work, b) is part of rape culture and causes way too much real suffering. You're right about that.

That said, as one commenter mentioned earlier, given that we float in a sea of rape culture, it's also true that too many men are going to think what he said. As a practical fact, that's true.

If/when you talk to him about it, it may be worth saying that, yes, you know what he means in this messed up mindset we all have to deal with. But you want to talk about the principle of the thing, and that's important if we're ever to cure ourselves of it.

Yeah, me neither nothing. Although whenever I've been on a thread where ppl are defending a guy's use of porn, no matter what the circumstances of the relationship, be it an addiction, or whatever, someone generally jumps on to excuse it because 'men are more visual than women'. Even if they are, it's no excuse for poor behavior of any kind. I was pointing out that apparently (according to those ppl who have disagreed with me on those threads), that a large proportion of ppl will tell you that men are more visual, therefore will look, etc. Which is possibly what the bf was getting at?
Why is that a stupid post?

I dated a woman last year for a few months that had been a bit of a globe trotter over the years. She liked sharing her old photo albums with me and wandering down memory lane and talked of the adventures she had. We were both late 30s and he travelling was when she was 20-25.
Inn the vast majority of photos she was dressed accordinglydue to temps of where she was. Bikini shots, mini skirts, smallest shorts imaginable etc etc.
At no point did I even think she looked 'Slutty', all I saw was a woman looking fab and having a great holiday.

His reaction was totally opposite to that and feeds in to the typical male 'you're my property and noone is closed to look' mentality.

Does he try to control what you wear when you go out? If you went to a nightclub together does he police your outfit and behaviour?

Erm, and what has studying physics got to do with it @NothingOnTellyAgain?

" time and time again, men, women and the scientific community are always banging on about how 'visual' men are"

This was a fucking stupid blanket statement.

Is what it has to do with it.

Astrophysicists are not always "banging on" about this
Nor are geologists
Nor are the propulstion experts at Nasa
etc etc

The "scientific community" involves more than a few evopsyches.

Oh it was you who wrote that really stupid blanket statement.
And you don't understand the response to it.

I assuemd it was someone who hadn't read it asking, nto the person who wrote it!

OK.

SOME women and ? some scientists might "bang on" about this.

Not ALL of them though.

The idea that men are more "visual" is highly questionable anyway IMO it's an excuse used by men for the way they treat women and girls.

I wouldn’t waste more time on a man so misogynistic. I have been with my H over ten years and I have never heard him call a woman a “slut” or described clothing as “slutty”. If he did I’d be shocked and appalled just like if he made a racist or homophobic comment etc.

The way he reacted to you calling him out is bad as well, he didn’t say “you’re right, the word slut is a misogynistic slur and it is completely unacceptable, I don’t know why I said it, I’m an idiot”, he tried to justify his slut shaming and kind of extended it to victim blaming too (why complain about creep guys when you ask for it by wearing small skirts).

I can't really recall how the conversation ended - I think it was him basically not understanding my points and me feeling hurt and disagreeing with his. I felt annoyed and ignored him for a good hour (lol) but realised we were on holiday so we agreed to postpone this discussion until we returned

He does understand your points, he just disagrees with you.

He’s is misogynist . Your values are incompatible and you will not be happy with him in the long term.

The idea that men are more "visual" is highly questionable anyway IMO it's an excuse used by men for the way they treat women and girls.

Yes, it is. Which is why I said some ppl used this as an explanation, but I didn't. I really don't get why you've got a problem with what I said about someone else's opinions? Not my opinions, but possibly also those of the bf.

Oh it was you who wrote that really stupid blanket statement.
Was it a blanket statement if I was referencing the fact that some ppl had that opinion?

And you don't understand the response to it.
I certainly don't understand what you are trying to get at, seeing as you appear to have misunderstood my post. Why don't you try explaining the physics comment, or are you just deliberately trying to provoke a response by being obtuse?

I have - I literally did just now. In my post at 8:42. Maybe I wasn't explicit enough.

I'll have another go.

You said

"time and time again, men, women and the scientific community are always banging on about how 'visual' men are, usually some lame comment excusing some guys use of porn"

There is no "some" it is a blanket statement and refers to the entire "scientific community" large swathes of which have zero interest in how "visual" men are.

I have never "banged on" about how "visual" men are, not when womaning, and not when sciencing.

I've read your post loads of times now and I can't see a "some" or similar.

I mean in the sense of "some poeple say this" obv

I would also dispute that all women subscribe to this view either.

IMHO to dump a nice person, because of 1 slightly iffy comment in a year, seems a little extreme.
I don't think he is unusual in his attitude, in my experience people do think this way. Men are, whether we like it or not, biologically programmed for sex, so they will look for signals for where they can get it. It doesn't mean they are all misogynistic or sex attackers or controlling.

Clothing is a form of communication, despite what you may think, every item of clothing you wear, consciously or subconsciously, sends a message to other people... this is why you put on makeup, wear the latest fashions or wear clothing that accentuates your female attributes- you could have easily worn cargo shorts instead, but who looks attractive in those, right?

My OH is incredibly respectful and would respect any decision about clothing I chose to wear, this doesn't stop him raising his eyebrows when he sees a scantily clad female.

Yeah no that's not on.

A 13yo girl rolling up her skirt is more than likely copying her peers / doing it becasue it's what the done thing is.

To look at her and say she is deliberately sending out signals to adult men about sexual availability is grotesque.

Women and girls follow fashion and norms > we are social creatures.

I put on makeup to go to work I am absolutely not signalling to men that I am sexually available and also (?) not picky ie up for it with any passing male in the cleaning cupboard.

It is MEN who say that when girls and women wear certain clothes makeup etc that we are seeking male attention and so we shouldn't be upset when there's a stray hand on our tit in the bus when we're in our school uniform or whatever.

Women who say that other women and girls in short skirts are asking for it are actively backing up male entitlement to abuse us.

IMHO to dump a nice person, because of 1 slightly iffy comment in a year, seems a little extreme
its not a slightly iffy comment though is it? He's told her exactly how he feels about women and unfortunately those views appear to be sexist and misogynistic.

in my experience people do think this way
You need to find better friends. In my experience only people with sexist and misogynistic views think like this.

Men are, whether we like it or not, biologically programmed for sex, so they will look for signals for where they can get it
No, humans are biologically programmed for sex. Society has taught us that it is male attribute.

My OH is incredibly respectful and would respect any decision about clothing I chose to wear, this doesn't stop him raising his eyebrows when he sees a scantily clad female

Would he raise his eyebrows at YOU if you were 'scantily clad'? Waht about a scantily clad male? He doesn't sound respectful at all. He needs to stop judging women on what how they dress. It's got fuck all to do with him.

girls and women liek to look "nice" and so dress in the prevailing norms and fashions.

men and boys also like to look "nice" but the fashions for them are way less revealing.

Does your OH think when he sees a 14yo boy with his trousers at half mast showing his boxers (as per prevailing fashion) that the boy is signalling to adult men that he wants anal sex?
If not why not?

There is a man at my work who goes running in 70s style short shorts every lunch break
He is tall and slim so there are these great long legs with tiny shorts at the top.

Literally no-one thinks he is signalling his sexual avaialbility to all and sundry.
A woman in the same shorts would be read in an entirely different way.

Because, sexism.

Men are, whether we like it or not, biologically programmed for sex

Bullshit peddlaed by men to justify their shitty behaviour.
Any man that spouts this shit or any form of,
"But I NEED sex"
Is an arsehole of the highest order.

I've read your post loads of times now and I can't see a "some" or similar.
No, you're right, I scrolled back and couldn't see it either. I was answering another thread at the same time and posted two posts close together, the second one pointing out I had not said all men, or something similar, so I accept I am mistaken in saying that on this thread to you and either posted it elsewhere, or didn't press post twice, which I am having to do on the phone app in order for it to actually go through.
However, I didn't actually specify ALL men, women and members of all scientific communities either, and I expect you are familiar enough with common phrasing to realise that I could have said this without actually meaning ALL men and women think/say that? Especially as I said I didn't agree, and I do class myself as a woman. And therefore there's no way I would have been meaning that ALL men and women say that men are more visual.
You're wasting your time trying to make out I meant something different. I'm not the only one to have pointed out that men look at revealing clothes on women, or that it isn't an excuse for crappy behaviour.

Woah! I never said every communication was about sex. I said everything you wear communicates something. Self presentation is a form of communication. E.g. men who have huge beards are trying to represent themselves as part of a hipster tribe.

Men don't wear their pants round their ankles to invite anal sex. It is a tribal thing... It dates back to men in US prison having had their belts removed, thus their pants hang round their bums and the slobby walk.

It's all just basic sociology and human nature.

It's funny how one small comment can reveal so much about a person's attitudes.
I don't think it's a small thing at all.
Not sure I could stay with someone like that.
Am surprised it's taken a year to come out though.

I also never said all men act upon sexual desire, doesn't mean they can't think it.
People have sex drives, they notice sexy people. If you're wearing a baggy sweater, you're hiding your body people will pay less attention.
Why do you think 'sexy' pop stars women AND men are scantily clad. There is also the rise in toxic masculinity where men are being valued for their appearance and ability to become buff.

"You're wasting your time trying to make out I meant something different. I'm not the only one to have pointed out that men look at revealing clothes on women, or that it isn't an excuse for crappy behaviour."

You said
"And if you did have half your arse hanging out, don't blame the hot weather. That's not really the reason, is it?"

So you do assert that women and girls who wear skimpy clothes are doing it for a specific reason which is... what exactly?

I think you are implying that any woman or girl who wears tight or skimpy clothes wants any and all men to ogle them.
If thats' not what you meant then what?