The message is getting through

[HouseOfGoldandBones]

I lurk on these boards a lot, but don't usually contribute at all, but thought I'd share this.

Had a man come to read the meter this morning, and the conversation got onto children, and he had a rant because his 2 DD's (12) have just started at a brand newly built school & all of the toilets are gender neutral & he is very, very unhappy about this.

He was very sure to let me know that he wasn't prejudiced at all, but his twin girls refuse to use the toilets at school as they are embarrassed & instead wait until lunch time when they come home to use the loo (& because they live very close, bring some of their friends with them)

He is making an appointment with the Headmaster to let him know that he is setting up a petition with other parents, and, if necessary, will not send his daughters to school until they have their own loos.

He was also very critical of the SNP Government because, in his words, "they're so right-on, they haven't stopped to consider girls wellbeing"

So, it seems that the message is getting through

Those girls are very lucky they can come home. Many schools don't allow kids off-campus during the school day

And what do you bet that if he goes into his girls' school and tells them that the children are using his home loo, the first move will be to ban the girls from doing so as a safeguarding measure?

Traceyracer, I don't know how well it works in Nordic countries. Maybe Nordic boys are brought up differently and Nordic girls are therefore happy to share facilities. But girls in UK schools don't. on the whole, want to share with the boys.

but haven't the Nordic countries been using gender-neutral toilets and changing rooms for years without any problems?

Ah. Whattaboutery.

What about the girls and women in Africa raped because they don't have access to secure toilets?

I'm always slightly dubious about the kind of happy nirvana Scandinavian countries are often portrayed as being. The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo's title originally was Men Who Hate Women. I doubt that solely come from Stieg Larsson's imagination.

Not just in Africa. It's a significant problem. There's also a report re the risk to women in unisex facilities here. Some good person will link it.

Prob the NM Oracle that is R0wan

I don't think these Swedish (Nordic) blokes know how to behave:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276075-Sweden-historical-open-air-bath-removes-sex-barriers-for-queer-day-women-driven-home-by-ogling-men

And no, everything is not mixed sex in Scandinavian countries.

Why is something that very few people want being pushed on all of us?

Everything is NOT mixed sex in Scandinavia/nordics! (Dh is a native.)

I have never, ever been in a mixed sex toilet or change in any country there. Almost all changing and showers etc are single sex and open plan - no cubicles. There are some mixed sex saunas in Finland I think but not widespread.

Why is something that very few people want being pushed on all of us?

You are not alone in wondering this.

If the meter reading gentleman does complain to the school they'll probably dismiss it as the bigoted opinions of a (presumably) straight white male, just another 'gammon'.

in Center Parcs, lake district; there are mixed gender changing rooms. but you can still of course change in a private cubicle.

Are you saying that sort of thing is creating a risk?

Good grief.

I shall leave the more patient of the posters on this thread to deal with the monumental stupidity posed by the question "Are you saying that sort of thing is creating a risk?".

I'll take that as a yes

Yes, they are, because yes, it is. Or at least, boring old statistics suggest that it increases the existing risk.

Are you saying that sort of thing is creating a risk?

The evidence is saying that.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Grauniad nothing would surprise me less. And actually they'd probably be within their rights to do so if there was a safeguarding issue or an afternoon truancy issue which would justify that, but they most likely wouldn't follow through to consider the effect on girls.

RiverTam my goodness, that puts quite a different spin on those books. I've read the first two and been uncomfortable at the level of detail (modern crime is not really my genre for that reason), wondering if the author was...I don't know, getting off on it somehow, despite his anti-fascist credentials. But in "Fire" Salander is so vehemently anti-abuse/prostitution/trafficking, I couldn't help but admire the writing.

I hated The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo book because the author had absolutely no understanding of autism and cobbled together a bunch of stereotypes to represent the protagonist.

tracy there may well be mixed sex changing rooms, but I very much doubt there are any mixed gender. I can see that there may be a need for family changing rooms but adult mixed sex toilets are a recipe for disaster in my book.

silent it actually makes me pretty cross the title was changed for the English language editions. It gets the point across very viscerally. I wonder what Stieg would have made of it.

At Center Parks there are (or were) family changing rooms for families using the pool area. There were still single sex changing rooms for those without children and the spa facilities.

Therefore the demographic of the people using the family changing rooms at centre parks is different to the demographic of those using mixed sex changing room at for example your local swimming pool.

I felt safe using the family facilities at centre parks with my husband in a very busy environment with a lot of staff and pretty much everyone being part of a family group.

I don't feel safe in the mixed sex changing room at my local pool where there are often no staff members on duty in the changing rooms and there are both men on their own and groups of teenage boys.

It is not the same type of environment.

The configuration of center parts changing facilities may be well designed and fine ... it doesn't have much bearing on the thread subject of school loos, where girls need - and legally should have - access to single sex facilities.

Are you saying that sort of thing is creating a risk?

Starter for ten!

1. Why do any single sex spaces exist? Is it,

A. Because we love to build in duplicate for funsies ?
or

B. For the safety, privacy and dignity of each sex?

1. Why does every aid and development agency on the planet push for single sex sanitary provision? Is it:

A. Because they also love wasting money building in duplicate for funsies or
B. Because it reduces the incidence of rape and sexual assault of women and girls.

Answers on a postcard.

I've spent time in Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark over the past few years.

Not once (and I have to wee a lot) have I encountered mixed sex toilets.

It reminds me of the communal shower situation at my high school back in the 90s where loads of girls would bunk off or feign illness to avoid PE lessons just because of the changing rooms and showers. At that point they weren't even forcing anyone male into the environment.

memories.

I am so glad that your everyday person is starting to realise what is going on. My local schools (except the Catholic schools, tellingly) all changed their toilets over the summer to mixed-sex, without consulting with, or warning, any of the parents or pupils. Just a fait accomplish.

Accompli!