Trans Women Should Be Allowed In Women Only Spaces

[KiBob]

I posted a few days ago that I need help arguing a case on the debating website Kialo. Thanks to your suggestions I've got one claim accepted that I was struggling with.

I'm now trying to get a new claim past admins.

As a supporting claim to:

"Allowing anyone who identifies as female into women-only spaces makes those spaces worse for cis women".

I put this:

"Trans women are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls as found by this study In Sweden in 2011". With a link to this study:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Admin have responded:

"Hm, interesting link. However, the results don't differentiate between trans men and trans women, and also state this: "Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989." - so this might be a bit outdated - 30 years is pretty long.
Further up, in the Abstract, under results it also says "Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls."

Can you point me to the exact place where you get your numbers? Thanks!"

Help!

Well that will be conclusive then because everything published in the media is true, correct and factual.

@Weetabixandshreddies

Do you actually think it would be OK, helpful and great for men who purport to be women to be allowed into spaces historically preserved for women who have suffered due to the actions of men?

they are the conviction counts per year, for specific crime types.

That were published in the media.

You’re still not getting it are you? I could set up a website today called ‘womancrimeuk’ I could post every story about a woman criminals and then just one or two about men. You could then take this data and say ‘woman are 10000x more likely to be in prison than men!’
It is not a satisfactory way to get data.

EW sorry to hear you're exhausted by the comments of an oppressed group
Are you talking about woman? What an odd thing to say. Are you struggling that hard to prove me wrong that you have to get the violin strings out, bloody hell.
I am a woman (the vagina kind) and I would never suggest someone can’t question or debate me because of it - not all woman are weak you know, as a woman I would be offended if you said that on my behalf.

End of a long week. And I'm tired. So not I'm not up for engaging with academic talk.

I have a feeling that many regular posters, like me, may be avoiding this thread not because of KiBob's admirable quest for stats to debate their point academically.

But because at the basis of any discussion is that transwomen are transwomen.

By nature of the word, they are not female. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.

Most of us are now aware of the tsunami of an agenda pushing for transwomen (as above) to be able to access women's spaces.

And many of us are fed up of the constant push to nudge, budge, and appeal to statistics, female socialisation, etc. What about this? How about this statistic?

I know transrights activists don't like Iris Child's poem, but this thread reminds me of it:
irischild.blogspot.com/2018/09/i-will-not-say-it-tran-i-am.html

Bespin

Seeing as 99.1% of sexual crimes are committed by men and 48% of transwoman are in prison for sexual crime compared to a miniscule percentage of women, it's OK for us to not want males in female spaces.

Seeing as cross-dressing is the number one paraphilia in sex offenders, and seeing as a man cross-dressing even only sometimes makes them a transwoman according to stonewall and seeing as "transwomen are women no debate" I think it's OK for us to question whether or not we even want transwomen in women's spaces.

medium.com/@evastanford/transwomen-sexual-offenders-a-closer-look-6c507d9e2414

Do you actually think it would be OK, helpful and great for men who purport to be women to be allowed into spaces historically preserved for women who have suffered due to the actions of men?

Have said a million times over that I don't agree with self ID.

pombear I don’t think that’s quite the reason you’re staying away now is it? You’re all (mostly) intelligent woman that understand the statistics do not match your narrative and I believe most woman reading this will understand what I’m saying even if they disagree with the point of view I’m coming from.
I have not once on this thread said transwoman are woman, and I’ve said several times Self ID is ridiculous.
I (and others) have merely questioned statistics that are presented as ‘fact’ so often on these boards as some kind of trump card but as of yet no one has been able to prove me wrong.
I think that speaks volumes given how vocal you usually all are.

Does Bespin even post on these boards anymore? Haven’t seen her around for a while.
Anyway I’ve already responded to the rest of your post if you have a look back.
R.e your question - is it ok to question transwoman in our spaces. Absolutely, question away as I’ve said so many times. Just don’t use false statistics in the process.

Naw early it’s just cos it’s a Friday night. Ppl relaxing being with their kids an£ partners and cats

That’s all.
So,basically got better things to do

So am off to do them better things 🍺🍺😉😉

Not stopped them posting on other threads has it?
My kids are in bed by 7 and my partner is working away so I have nothing but time and wine. Maybe I should get a cat.
Doesn’t explain why no one could answer it on other threads but if that’s the case I shall wait and I’m sure they’ll all be along with the answers.

Earlywalker - telling me to stop playing the victim as it’s exhausting?? Are you ok? You’re sounding a tad dramatic, maybe you need an early night.

Earlywalker

pombear I don’t think that’s quite the reason you’re staying away now is it?

Yes. It is.

If you don't like my reasoning, that's up to you. But that's exactly why I'm staying away from this thread. I know why I have and I stated it here. You can't redefine the reason why I've avoided it.

I'm sure many other readers will take away what they wish.

I think that speaks volumes given how vocal you usually all are.

Many posters, for many, many months have debated and discussed statistics, evidence, etc. Many choose where to expend their energies right now, so I wouldn't crow about this thread that the silence represents much other than people being tired!

given how vocal you usually all are

You lump everyone into an 'other' 'you' group here. Which is, in itself, telling.

Good night to you.

EarlyWalker more stats for you...

Hopefully I've done my math right!

NZ's population is 4,760,022.
The sex division is almost 50/50.
So dividing the population in half makes 2,380,011 males out of 4,760,022.

Studies have shown that transgender males are approximately 0.2% of the population. 0.2% of 2,380,011 is 4,760.

According to "reports obtained under the Official Information Act"* as of 2018 there are 25 transgender prisoners incarcerated in NZ prisons, with no transfers to male prisons (so we can assume that none are likely to be transitioned FtMs, and more likely to be MtFs.) The incarcerated 25 is 0.5% of 4,760.

NZ has 2,380,011 females out of 4,760,022

There are a total of 774 female prisoners incarcerated in NZ as of 2018. That makes 0.03% of the total population of females. A MUCH lower percentage.

Out of the 2,380,011 males in NZ, there are 9,661 male prisoners incarcerated presently - 0.4%, which lines up almost exactly with the transgender numbers.

*www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1804/S00232/implications-of-changes-to-births-act-for-female-inmates.htm

Does being trans confer some sort of safety mechanism? How else can the data be interpreted?

It means you are likely to move in different circles and have different relationships. What do you think is being missed exactly?

For a start we don't know how many trans people in the general population so how can any of the other statistics be worked out?

We have estimates. How else should we do anything?

If the statistics are true then the argument against self-ID works logically. However, that's not really how it seems to go in wider society with matters that veer towards the taboo - race, class, etc.

For instance, studies have concluded that male intelligence is more variable than female intelligence, with both more extremely intelligent and extremely stupid men. But god forbid anyone suggest that it might be the reason for there being more male CEOs and inventors, despite this being a logical conclusion.

Similarly, black people have been shown to be 'over-represented at every stage of the criminal justice system' yet this is also seemingly a taboo subject and would never be seen as justification for barring their entry to our spaces as was once done.

I'd imagine it would also be seen as bigoted to, for example, oppose the placement of council housing near to affluent neighbourhoods on the basis of poor people committing more crime, although this argument also makes logical sense like the self-ID one.

I think many posters are so invested in their opposition to self ID that they don't get the fact that much of the general public views all these vulnerable classes as alike and all equally worthy of special dispensation.

It's guess work.

Yes, it is guesswork. It's unnecessary. Because people cannot change sex and there is no evidence that MTF trans are any less risk to women than any other male.

That's really it.

What about? What about? What about?

I'm generally wary of self-ID, but I've nonetheless not seen a decent explanation of why some classes can be analysed by their criminal tendencies whilst others seemingly can't.

Everytime I bring it up the eye roll emojis and 'whataboutery' catchphrases seem to get rolled out.

ScottCheggJnr
Are you arguing against sex segregation?

Scrumplestiltskin if transgender males make up 0.2% of the population why have you worked out 0.2% of half the population as the amount of transgender males?

eresh saying ‘whataboutary’ or similar everytime someone asks something you can’t answer makes you look ridiculous. But for once I do agree with you on this bit: Yes, it is guesswork. It's unnecessary there is no need to keep twisting facts and figures to fit your narrative.

Also which studies have shown this:
Studies have shown that transgender males are approximately 0.2% of the population

And as for this (so we can assume that none are likely to be transitioned FtMs, and more likely to be MtFs what is your assumption based on? We know 1/4 of trans people in prison in the UK are trans men with none in male prisons.

Ooh, you're right there Earlywalker, I need to look at the stats again. The problems of doing these things while supervising children

We know 1/4 of trans people in prison in the UK are trans men with none in male prisons.
This to me is incredibly inappropriate, if they are legally male. Why do some legal males get to choose to go to to a female prison, but not all legal males?