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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this normal for a woman or is it gender dysphoria?

105 replies

cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 21:52

Forgive me the following description is stating the obvious for some of you, but I wanted to post this to encourage a discussion about how women experience their own bodies. Like other women here, one of the numerous objections I have to the term ‘cis’ is that I have never felt comfortable with gender norms or my own body and have no innate sense of being female.

Even as a small child I hated being cooed over simply because I had long blonde hair. I felt reduced to little more than a doll and always wondered why my hair should matter, it was so trivial. I asked to get my hair cut off but my mother wouldn’t let me. I hated that I had to be a bridesmaid, being paraded around in a ridiculous dress – even though I was only around eleven, I still felt dehumanised, being shown off as a thing rather than a person. Similar was having to wear a skirt for Sunday School, I didn’t see why God would care if I had a skirt on or not. I hated it in Brownies too, I wanted to be active and not worry about whether I was showing my pants or not. I hated that I wasn’t allowed to have ‘boys toys’ like a chemistry set because I was told it was dangerous.

I’ve never been overweight, but as soon as my body started to develop I felt fat. When I was a teenager I developed bulimia and it’s something I’ve struggled with on and off ever since. I hate when my stomach bloats up to three times it’s normal size when I’m due to get my period so I can grab handfuls of flesh around my middle. I have a fairly slim but curvy body, and I feel that it attracts the kind of men I don’t want to attract, it somehow makes them assume that I’m stereotypically feminine in my interests or a bimbo, inferior in every possible way. I hate it when I find men staring at my tits rather than listening to me. I also hate it when you get looked up and down by women, as happens often when you’re walking down the street minding your own business. The sad thing is I’m sure I do it too, we get programmed to monitor each other and make sure no woman steps out of place with what she’s wearing or how she’s behaving – not too confident in her own body, covered up enough etc. I try to dismantle this and smile at women I pass on the street now (when I’m not being a miserable git), I want things to change.

I feel like I had to learn how to like heterosexual sex. The thought of a man’s ejaculate to be honest still does make me feel a bit sick. I do enjoy sex, but the submissive nature of it for a woman and the way it reduces me to just a body at times repulses me.

I hate the way that relatives and friends’ parents feel it their place to comment on my body – my weight, the straightness of my legs, my posture. One of my ex-boyfriend’s mothers seemed to size me up like a prize cow, assessing my health as a potential breeder. I realise this might be a bold thing to say on Mumsnet, but I’ve never wanted to have children. I have a recurring nightmare that I am pregnant, I wake up in a cold sweat. It’s the thought of feeling trapped by my body, as much as the way I feel society would view me as a purely physical being existing only to bring other life into the world rather than in my own right (please note that this isn’t how I see mothers myself).

I hate when I go to the gym that the idiot men in there look at me lifting the heaviest weights I can with a smarmy look, as if they’re comparing themselves to me and getting an ego boost, thinking how pathetic I am. I hate being grabbed around my waist as though I’m a man’s f*ing property and sexualised as a ‘thing’ before they’ve even spoken to me.

I was wondering how many other women feel the way I do? When a young teen I wondered if I was gay, even though that’s never been my orientation. I said many times whilst growing up that I wanted to be a boy, but being transgender wasn’t on the radar back then. I have no idea how I would feel about it if I was growing up now, it seems like it would be ten times worse.

I hope no-one minds me posting this. I’ve never really talked about just how uncomfortable I feel in my own body with anyone before, so I honestly don’t know if what I’m describing is extreme or very common. I feel genuinely deeply distressed how women are being redefined by transgender ideology as supposedly comfortable in their own bodies, as it is something I have struggled with my entire life and it continues daily. As a reaction to this, I’m currently rethinking how to present myself as more androgynous by cutting my hair off and wearing more masculine clothes. I can’t stand the idea of gender norms being reinforced any more than they already are, I feel trapped.

OP posts:
scotsheather · 16/11/2018 16:03

Yes it sounds like gender dysphoria to me. If only you could have gone to the doctor and got puberty stopped and bind your breasts in preparation for sterility and lifetime steroid use. [sarcasm]

cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 16:04

But I know that when I used to go back home one of the first questions I'd get asked by female family members was what size clothes I was and how much I weighed, not what I'd been studying or what else I'd been up to (I was neither under nor overweight). As I've mentioned, this was a toxic environment, I'm not claiming this is necessarily the norm, I wouldn't know what is. My mother would also always report back on how such and such had put weight on now was looking 'ever so bonny' - ugh. I found it odd they were all so obsessed with other women's weight.

OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 16/11/2018 16:40

For some reason you seem to be in denial

Denial of what ? My comments were not specifically adressed to you but to the posts generally. I do think feminism generates a good deal of self obsession.

cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 17:14

LassWiADelicateAir - Denial that these things we have described actually happen. You're gaslighting women who are describing instances of objectification that have made them feel unhappy and demeaned by calling it 'self obsession'. Doesn't it occur to you that the reason we are choosing to discuss it on a feminism board as that we never discuss it anywhere else? I clearly stated in the OP that I had no idea if other women could relate or not because it was something I'd never talked about. It sounds like you are trying to silence us, and I'm not having it.

OP posts:
cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 17:18

You still haven't answered my question as to your social class, so I can only presume that you are a middle class woman telling working class women that their experiences aren't valid because they haven't happened to you.

OP posts:
cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 17:24

Lass - I also find it grossly insensitive to call the women commenting 'self obsessed' considering many of the women here have described their experiences of male violence, narcissistic abuse, sexual assault, eating disorders, body dysmorphia and sexual harassment. I guess we now all know who not to turn to in our hour of need. Lets close down all the rape crisis centres while we're at it, those self-obsessed rape victims really need to get a grip!

OP posts:
PurpleOva · 16/11/2018 17:34

I saw a tweet about this today, you might find it interesting cockBlocker about trans being the new anorexia.

I think girls who would maybe have been in the proana scene in the past, may now be lured by the appeal of the boy body and no puberty of the trans kids of today.

I haven't read all of this mind you, but think it links in with your line of thought.

thefederalist.com/2018/09/06/transgender-new-anorexia/

cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 17:37

PurpleOva - thanks, I have my suspicions about that too, I'll have a look.

OP posts:
PurpleOva · 16/11/2018 17:38

The tweet I saw was about this Sun link, which is a bit more about personal stories:

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/7362652/changing-gender-new-anorexia/

Again, I didn't read it all... lazy sharer!

ArkeNOTen · 16/11/2018 17:56

Um, those of you asking about not being able to take compliments well. I used to find this excruciatingly embarassing - it drew attention to my body and actually to myself. This can be really really difficult for some people. We aren't always taught waht to say or how to take a compliment for what it is.

Anyone comes up to me nowadays and says they like my dress/shoes/hair I breazzily say thanks! and coach myself not to say 'oh itsnothing' 'oh they're really old' etc. I coach myself to say thanks - I really love these shoes too.

I also try to make myself compliment people in the street or when interacting.

Part of this is learnt from becoming a parent - its a big learning curve as you do end up interacting more with strangers - cooing over tiny babies or excusing your crazy toddler etc. Its a persona that didn't come naturally, and I do believe its an actual skill - especially doing it without belittling yourself.

cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 18:18

ArkeNOTen - I've always found compliments difficult for the reasons you describe too.
PurpleOva - Read the Sun article, can relate to that young girl a lot. I'm convinced it's big pharma behind all this, not only in terms of the drugs they're currently flogging, but so as to pave the way for further technological bodily modifications and to normalise it. Rothblatt one of the trans lobby's biggest funders is a transhumanist and is developing such technologies, I can see how it all it all would tie together - get people to think of their bodies as a collection of parts that can be implanted and adapted so that you can market these new products to them.

OP posts:
cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 18:24

...there's even a new feminist sub-type to support the tanshumanist/transgender agenda:

www.laboriacuboniks.net/20150612-xf_layout_web.pdf

OP posts:
Heratnumber7 · 16/11/2018 20:04

and have no innate sense of being female

Does anyone have an innate sense of being female?? HmmHmm

MIdgebabe · 16/11/2018 21:52

Quite a few men it seems so have an innate female identity

Heratnumber7 · 17/11/2018 00:31

Grin Midge

LassWiADelicateAir · 17/11/2018 03:28

I clearly stated in the OP that I had no idea if other women could relate or not because it was something I'd never talked about. It sounds like you are trying to silence us, and I'm not having it

No one is silencing you. How would that even work on an internet forum? You say you had no idea if other women could relate to what you describe. Well I don't. I can't begin to imagine the sort of self-loathing for the female body which some posters on this thread (and quite often on FWR) seem to think is normal , even healthy. It's by no means the first time this topic has come up. Other than posters on FWR I don't know any one who does. I mean women moan about things like putting on weight or going grey but this sort of visceral hatred of being female ? No.

You might not like hearing that if what you wanted was a validation.

You have demanded several times to know what class I am. It is up to me what information I post or not.

I guess we now all know who not to turn to in our hour of need. Lets close down all the rape crisis centres while we're at it, those self-obsessed rape victims really need to get a grip!

Such an exaggeration from what I said. What I meant was that other than posters on here I've never met any women in real life who are so taken up with the idea that they are under constant scrutiny from the male gaze and overly critical women. Most women just get on with their lives. You mentioned The Daily Mail- I give women enough credit to make their own minds up simply to ignore what it says about women are supposed to aspire to.

hipsterfun · 17/11/2018 13:48

Other than posters on FWR I don't know any one who does. I mean women moan about things like putting on weight or going grey but this sort of visceral hatred of being female ? No.

Lass, if you’re like you are on MN (nb I appreciate your style, even if I don’t always agree with you) in real life, I can’t imagine you’d be the go-to gal for confiding such insecurities.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 17/11/2018 14:17

I was once told on here If a woman I didn't know walked up to me on the street, while I was walking home from work say, and stopped me, to tell me I had a nice dress, I'd think she was very very very peculiar indeed and it never happens. Well , sorry but it does happen.

It definitely does happen. It's happened to me and I quite often compliment complete strangers, mostly but not exclusively female ones.

A 60-ish woman who works in one of the shops I often go in has dyed her short, very fluffy hair a strong, clear blue. She looks like one of the flames in that old British Gas ad. I told her how much I liked it and she was delighted.

I'm ambivalent about male attention. On the one hand I've had far more negative experiences than average, including two rapes. On the other I have had lots of glorious sex with lots of men and some great relationships/friendships with men too. Being a tallish, confident, good looking woman has been generally a positive experience for me because I'm an enthusiastic heterosexual. Were I a lesbian or just not very interested in men my experience would have felt very different.

Regarding OP's views about sex being submissive, I've come across the argument that penetration is aggressive before. But deciding to put things into bodily orifices isn't submissive, or at least that's not how I see it.

If I put food in my mouth or enjoy a partner putting his tongue in my mouth during deep kissing; if I decide to perform fellatio: in none of these instances am I submitting to anyone. These are active decisions, just as welcoming my partner's penis into my body is. As we say so often on FWR, a vagina is far more than a cavity. My strong vaginal muscles work in concert with my partner's penis. It's entirely mutual.

Peakpants · 17/11/2018 14:36

hipsterfun 🤣

cockBlocker · 17/11/2018 15:05

You might not like hearing that if what you wanted was a validation.
I've already said you are entitled to your own experience numerous times, that's not the problem. I object to you calling women 'self-obsessed' when talking about how things such as male violence and assault has made them feel about their bodies. I was a child victim of domestic violence and narcissistic abuse for 18 years, a sexual assault victim and a victim of stalking, no doubt this is where a lot of my discomfort with being a woman comes from. I would suggest that a lot of women on here have been through similar. It seems to me that there's something about this conversation that makes you feel uncomfortable and so you're trying to invalidate our experiences by being dismissive as a way to deal with it. Believe it or not I get on with my life outside of this forum too, but as this is a space to talk about women's rights in a way that there isn't the opportunity to do elsewhere, perhaps - just perhaps - that is why there are women talking about such things on here. I maintain that you sound like a heckler at a rape crisis centre.

Unfortunately, I have met quite a few women obsessed with the nonsense in rags like the Daily Mail, it does happen.

OP posts:
cockBlocker · 17/11/2018 15:18

...and my intention with the post was to see how many other women felt discomfort with their bodies when growing up, to consider whether this could be mistaken for gender dysphoria. I feel it relevant to counter trans ideology's ideas of 'feeling like a woman' equalling woman, and that 'cis' women supposedly feel comfortable with femininity, when for a lot of women nothing could be further from the truth.

OP posts:
Echobelly · 17/11/2018 15:26

I think there are many ways of 'being a woman' so not fitting the stereotypes is not a sign of dysphoria.

I was always a 'tomboy' child, but fortunately my parents let me express that and from the age of 8 until 35 I mostly wore my hair in a very short crop.

I don't relate to the experience of girlhood/womanhood that most women describe. I was never very worried how I looked, I've been happy with my body though I have small boobs (A cup) and a large waist, though I'm otherwise quite slim, but I never felt bothered that I didn't fit the societal ideal of 'womanliness'. I've also not experienced much harassment, either in terms of catcalling or being insulted by men, which a lot of people say defines being female, but I'm definitely still a woman.

So I understand why women can feel uneasy when we don't fit the narrative, but I don't think that has to have a label.

VerbeenaBeeks · 17/11/2018 16:09

I'm another one who has never experienced anything like in your OP, so for me it's not "normal for a woman" as it's not my experience.
Obviously I speak for me though and others will probably feel like you.
I've always felt very comfortable in my female body and self.

LassWiADelicateAir · 17/11/2018 16:13

I don't relate to the experience of girlhood/womanhood that most women describe

What experience are "most women" describing? The one of being deeply unhappy with being female or having a female body? It seems a common experience amongst radical feminists but of "most women"?

LassWiADelicateAir · 17/11/2018 16:22

I would suggest that a lot of women on here have been through similar. It seems to me that there's something about this conversation that makes you feel uncomfortable and so you're trying to invalidate our experiences by being dismissive as a way to deal with it

Having a different opinion or experience is not invidating yours. You seem to want everyone or a majority to say the same as you.

The answer to your question is almost certainly going to be skewed by being , posted on here. If you posted it on other sections you are likely to get far more responses like mine and the couple of other posters on here.

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