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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Law Commission consulting on paid surrogacy in the UK

264 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 15/11/2018 09:32

Sorry, I've no share token:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/surrogate-mothers-could-be-allowed-to-charge-cash-gfktl290j

OP posts:
StrawberryFilter · 21/11/2018 16:01

*childless couples no longer have hordes of orphans and illegitimate babies to adopt

I can't quite put my finger on what I don't like about that phrase- it's a touch glib.*

Not glib, I hope - it was meant to evoke the sort of Dickensian attitudes that used to prevail, sorry if that didn't come across? I meant that I am glad to live in a time where children aren't any longer removed from their mothers because the mothers are seen as 'unfit' for whatever bullshit reasons. I still walk past a former 'foundlings institute' most days ffs Hmm. Stories of the magdalene laundries are still coming out today and I find them so distressing that any woman could have a baby forcibly taken from her.

I was genuinely trying to give my view that the women I've met through doing surrogacy here at home and also in the US are not poor or desperate, and actively want to become surrogates because they find the idea appealing - they really want to help other couples become a parents by giving a gift only they can give. Again, I know there are always examples to be found of where it goes wrong but in the vast majority of cases it goes right and I wouldn't have DD without that generous impulse. Sorry if that makes you but hey ho.

And yes this very much ties into issues around adoption and what's been called variously on this thread the 'primal wound' and attachment disorder? I have adopted family members and yes, this is definitely a thing. My understanding is that children born from surrogacy have much healthier psychological outcomes - the oldest ones are well into adulthood now and say it's something to do with them being so very wanted by everyone involved, and not feeling that sense of rejection that adopted children talk finding hard to deal with later in life. I don't think you can compare adopted children to surrogacy children in that respect.

Gronky · 21/11/2018 19:35

Part of having agency is having the ability to surrender said agency, both in full and in part. My initial impulse is that payment should be held in escrow until successful delivery of the child but that would limit surrogacy to financially stable women. Whether this is desirable is not a question I can easily answer.

I am uncomfortable when women are dictated to regarding what they can and cannot do with their bodies by others (and find it particularly troubling when it's other women). You can support a woman's right to do something even if you find it objectionable.

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 21/11/2018 20:04

Gronky I think that's partly why I can support altruistic surrogacy - so a sister being a surrogate. There is free choice there.

However, commercial surrogacy is very different. How do you know that the women have a choice and aren't just forced into it by circumstances or by others for the money? This is a big problem with surrogacy in India for example - rich westerners have no clue whether the Indian women are actually doing it out of choice.

The same applies to prostitution - there's always someone who pops up to say they did it at uni for beer money as it's easier than flipping burgers. Fantastic for them. However, the majority of prostitutes in this country have been trafficked here, or forced into it by men/circumstances. There's no free choice there - should we legalise the commodification of women's bodies because a few women are happy with it, or should we stop it because the majority aren't?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 21/11/2018 20:09

I am uncomfortable when women are dictated to regarding what they can and cannot do with their bodies by others (and find it particularly troubling when it's other women). You can support a woman's right to do something even if you find it objectionable.

I'm not dictating what women do with their own bodies. I'm not objecting to women becoming pregnant. I am questioning the pressures on poor women to act as paid for surrogates and questioning how it's possible to 'gift' a child.

TwistedStitch · 21/11/2018 20:27

I'm not obliged to support everything a woman does just because she might choose to do it. Laws shouldn't be based on individual desires but on protection of the most vulnerable. Besides nobody is arguing that a woman can't get pregnant, just that she shouldn't be able to do
so for payment. A surrogate died recently in the US, whilst carrying twins for a couple who travelled there to circumvent the laws in their own country and rent her body. I will never support an industry that literally has women risking their lives for cash. I don't support allowing people to sell their kidneys to wealthy buyers either.

Gronky · 21/11/2018 20:37

I will never support an industry that literally has women risking their lives for cash

The majority of workplace deaths are suffered by men but does that mean you wouldn't support women working in industries like construction, heavy industry, civil engineering or veterinary work involving large animals?

TwistedStitch · 21/11/2018 20:42

Ah yes, its just like any other job. I hear this argument about prostitution too- being penetrated by up to 20 strangers a day, or dying in agony of placental abruption because you have undertaken a dangerous pregnancy due to financial hardship is just the same as having a career in an industry that carries increased risk. And the selling of a human being (payment only on delivery I think you suggested?) is no problem at all.

OrchidInTheSun · 21/11/2018 20:43

That's the prostitution argument. But it's not a job women do if they could earn the same money doing a different job. Same applies to surrogacy

Carowiththegoodhair · 21/11/2018 20:44

I'm not obliged to support everything a woman does just because she might choose to do it. Laws shouldn't be based on individual desires but on protection of the most vulnerable.

This.

Gronky · 21/11/2018 20:52

being penetrated by up to 20 strangers a day

Are you really comparing that to IVF performed by medical professionals?

And the selling of a human being (payment only on delivery I think you suggested?) is no problem at all.

Is selling IVF 'selling of a human being'?

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 21/11/2018 20:54

I don't agree with paid surrogacy but because of the impact on the mother. A poster earlier suggested trauma related symptoms to the baby?:

Nothing. I would not be surprised though if children taken away from their mothers at birth later showed trauma-related symptoms.

but that's not generally the case (as far as I'm aware) in adoption so don't see why it would be here

Gronky · 21/11/2018 20:56

But it's not a job women do if they could earn the same money doing a different job.

How very presumptive.

Carowiththegoodhair · 21/11/2018 20:56

Also, you do have to accept that there is another human being at stake. Intended parents aren’t vetted and when there isn’t the biological link or bond established through pregnancy, attachment is going to be harder work.

Knowing who our biological ancestors are and wanting to learn about them is a natural part of our forming our identity and learning about our place in the world.

There’s something deeply unsettling about knowing your mum was perhaps flogging her eggs for cash and you were using the body of a woman to gestate. That you were created to order to please adults.

Surrogacy is immoral regardless of the sexuality of the couple, but I have to admit that willfully depriving a child of a mum really upsets me. The child is craving the warmth, the smell, the heartbeat of the woman who has carried them and is cruelly snatched away & in some cases deprived of a woman altogether, on the grounds of ‘love’ and often justified on the basis that the child will want for nothing materially.

Everyone deserves the chance of a mum don’t they, even if some mums are less than ideal. We rightly push for equality everywhere, so why can’t we apply that equality to a child having access to a female parent?

You should check out the surro forums of women who have just gone through the process & are in that post-partem period. The dissonance is heart-breaking. There they are bleeding and sobbing, affirming each other that their tears and grief, pain and loss is irrational and that this will pass.

TwistedStitch · 21/11/2018 21:00

Are you really comparing that to IVF performed by medical professionals?

No I was using prostitution as an example of where I've heard the arguments you're giving before.

IVF as fertility treatment for intended parents isn't comparable to carrying, birthing and handing over a human being for cash.

Gronky · 21/11/2018 21:04

Also, you do have to accept that there is another human being at stake

This sounds rather reminiscent of arguments used by anti abortion activists.

That you were created to order to please adults.

What description would you use for someone who was conceived and brought to term through conventional means? Ultimately, isn't that the case for all children?

You should check out the surro forums of women who have just gone through the process & are in that post-partem period.

I certainly agree that a form of psychological screening and support would be desirable to minimise the impact. Informed consent is very important because, otherwise, it's not consent.

TwistedStitch · 21/11/2018 21:06

Gronky do you support people being allowed to sell non newborn children? Do you support people being allowed to sell their organs?

Carowiththegoodhair · 21/11/2018 21:11

Yes it is an argument used by anti-abortion activists. So what? Regardless of where you sit re abortion, once that baby is born you are unquestionably dealing with another human being with human rights.

Gronky · 21/11/2018 21:16

Those seem like rather loaded questions, TwistedStitch but I do not support the selling of non-newborn children because that is directly commodifying the child, as opposed to the means of its development. I do support the selling of organs when the sale does not lead to significant disability of the seller. As an example, I support people with rare blood types selling their blood or blood components (blood is an organ) because incentifying this behaviour benefits the health of a great many people.

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 21/11/2018 21:17

EverardDigby and MrsSpenserGregson

I commented above after just started the thread that I did not think it would necessarily traumatic for the child as just like adoption.

I hadn't read your later posts at the time & wouldn't have posted if I had as clearly the separation was traumatic for you. Apologies if it sounded insensitive. It was though based on my own experience of being adopted at birth which (I don't think) has had that effect on me (though it's possibly affected my siblings differently.

Anyway I was interested in the writings someone mentioned on birth trauma so I will check them out.

Materialist · 21/11/2018 21:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gronky · 21/11/2018 21:23

Materialist, apologies if you are not addressing me directly but I wasn't making comparisons between risky industrial professions and prostitution but between the former and surrogacy, where workplace safety absolutely can be applied (e.g. screening donors for transmissible disease, assessing the health of the surrogate prior to implantation, providing medical support throughout pregnancy, clean conditions for implantation, ect.).

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 21/11/2018 21:23

Gronky You talk about informed consent, but consent by definition has to be a free choice. How on earth do you ensure the woman isn't being forced into it, whether by poverty or other circumstances?

Gronky · 21/11/2018 21:28

How on earth do you ensure the woman isn't being forced into it, whether by poverty or other circumstances?

How do you do that with any job?

TwistedStitch · 21/11/2018 21:31

You don't think undergoing pregnancy and giving up a newborn due to poverty is different to other jobs?

user8905 · 21/11/2018 21:31

It's good that they're looking into it. If it doesn't go through then people will continue to go overseas to the US or 3rd world countries. Most people considering surrogacy would much rather do so in their home country if they can afford to do so.

If the regulations are well thought through then I'm sure it'll work well in the UK. They'll be able to use all the experiences in the US and 3rd countries to hopefully make it as fair as possible for everyone involved.

Remember it's optional - no one has to do it.

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